0:00:00 - Michelle
Welcome to the Her First podcast. I'm Michelle Pualani. Her First is a podcast to help online business owners, coaches and creators gain the confidence needed to build a successful business while creating sustainable lifestyle balance. We're here to help you prioritize yourself in your business and life. In this episode, I'm going to be interviewing my co-host, Joanna Newton, and we're talking about why saying yes is killing your reputation. Let's get into it. So, Joanna, I know now that you are an online business owner, but before you spent almost 10 years in the corporate world. Now I'm sure that you've learned a lot about business and professional growth there, and I'd love to hear about it.
0:00:42 - Joanna
I sure did so. I spent almost 10 years working at tech companies and really focused in marketing and starting customer service. My first job I was with about seven years and I actually started like a local customer service role and while I was there I was able to work my way up all the way to the national marketing team through applying through new jobs to get promotions, which is a really, really cool experience. But I also had a lot of ups and downs while I was there.
My philosophy in that first phase of my corporate career was that if I worked really hard I volunteered for things, I put my head down and worked hard that in the end people would just notice. They would notice, wow, look at everything she's accomplished, look what she's done, like she has to get a promotion. I just thought, if I did that, that's how I would get ahead. But that's not really what happened for me. One really interesting thing about my time like in that company for seven years is that in seven years I actually survived seven different rounds of layoffs Wow that is a lot of layoffs and a lot of time that you seemed like you stayed through through the transitions of that corporate life, which is interesting.
0:02:04 - Michelle
I don't have a big corporate background but hearing some of your stories has really shifted the way that I see that working environment and I think we go into it with that perspective of putting our head down, doing the work. We've got to pay our dues, we've got to move through the process from one to the other, and this is just what it's meant to be at this time, and sometimes that transitions into our businesses as well, so I know that that must have been really stressful. So seven years, seven layoffs, not knowing whether you were gonna be a part of that or not. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that was like?
0:02:38 - Joanna
Yeah. So there's definitely layers to that experience. First, being in a place like that where you just kind of never know when the next round of layoffs are gonna drop, is very stressful. You're very concerned about your job security and I think that also aids in you thinking I've got to do as much as I can, be as valuable as I can, because you don't want to be that person if there are layoffs to actually get laid off.
The other strange thing that comes in is real survivor's guilt. When your friends, your coworkers, people you really enjoy working for, they get laid off, you're still there. You kind of feel like I have to be grateful for this, like I have to be grateful that I still have a job. At least I wasn't laid off, at least I'm still getting paid. So when, whatever situation you're in with that layoff, it almost feels wrong to complain or be upset about it, because you should just be grateful that you have that job.
The other thing that's fascinating about layoffs is most of the time, at least in my experience layoffs come with company restructures. So people I think it's so people don't think they have to do five people's job. They restructure the company. They say, yes, we're losing some workforce, but we're restructuring it so it's more efficient, more organized. In those experiences sometimes people will get promotions out of it. Right, they'll restructure, so you won't have applied, you'll just get put into a new role.
The other possibility is you kind of take a lateral move or you might actually get a demotion, and a lot of times in layoffs, even though I always managed to apply for new jobs like sometimes a new job would come up and I would apply for it in a different department, in a different place and get that promotion when layoffs came around, I was always either moved laterally or moved down in sort of the corporate hierarchy, and I never really understood why I would move laterally or move down and other people would get promotions. So I'd see people getting promotions that I knew well and I was like I don't actually think they're more talented or more capable than me or even have more experience, but I would see this happening and I didn't really get. I was like am I not actually as good as I think? I am Like is this just me not understanding my abilities or what's happening here? And I never quite got what was going on.
0:05:05 - Michelle
Yeah, it sounds like a little bit of that comparison when you look to other people and see yourself in their role or their situation and think, what am I doing wrong or am I not doing well enough?
And as you move through this experience, having that kind of fear from job security made you almost superficially grateful for what you had.
Under that kind of pressure, and even though you may have been overextending yourself, you're working really hard, you're putting in the time, you've been really reliable. You're maybe not seeing the reward or the benefit of what that work is paying off. And then, of course, you have that kind of emotional tie-in, that guilt from staying in the role, staying with the company, even though maybe it's not the best thing for you or the company or whatever the case might be. So, seeing others who are getting promoted over you, that has a lot to do with kind of our topic today of that reputation and saying yes, right, you were kind of leading yourself down this yes path of making choices, taking on tasks and activities. So why do you think it was that you showing up as a yes person? You showing up working really hard, being reliable, doing everything that you felt like you need to, but then comparing yourself to others who are getting promoted or seeing more success or growth that you were then seeing.
0:06:27 - Joanna
At the time I'd say I never actually figured out what was going on when I was at that company. Wasn't till much later in my career that I looked back at that time and actually understood what I was doing. That hurt my reputation in that place. So the first thing that I think I realized was that becoming that go-to person that goes above and beyond, will say yes to everything. When someone gives you a new project, a new initiative, you'll figure it out. You'll do it. You'll do things outside of your job description to get the job done. That makes you too valuable to promote. If you're going to just do the job of two, three people, if you get promoted to a management position, they're gonna have to hire two, three people to replace you. And the reality is and I always took such pride in this fact whenever I did get a promotion, because the times that I did get a promotion, I think I applied for a promotion the reason I would get it is because they knew I'd probably look elsewhere if I didn't get it. So they were just appeasing me, almost like, okay, gotta give her this one because she's asking for it. But if you promoted me in a layoff situation where you're moving me to a management role when I wasn't before, or something like that, you were gonna have to hire two to three people to replace the work that I did, and this happened when I did get promotions. Oftentimes they would hire one person to replace me and they couldn't handle the job, so then they would handle two. They would hire two and hire a second person for that. So I was almost too valuable in terms of workload to actually promote.
The other thing that I also realized is that by saying yes to everything, being someone who can do everything, will do anything, will do everything you don't actually build a brand for yourself. So if your reputation is, oh, joanna, just Joanna will figure it out, give her that she'll do it. You don't think, oh, joanna's my go-to person for marketing strategy or my Joanna's my go-to person for whatever it is. You just think, oh, that's an interesting project, she'll figure it out. And you need to have that specific brand or specific skill set that people want. So you become a have-to-have at your company, not a let's put wherever like. No, joanna has to do this job because that's what she's best at, and I think that applies really to both the corporate world and as a business owner because your personal brand, your skill set, who you are, that is so important to attract clients, whether that's for a product or a service or a digital product, any of those things. You have to have that brand differentiation and it's not something I had because I was just seen as someone who would go anywhere. So when your company believes that you're gonna stay no matter what and you'll figure out how to be successful in whatever role they give you, they don't see you as having to have a specific role.
And as I moved up in corporate life, you start to realize how layoff decisions are made and how restructure decisions are made. A lot of times the roles about who gets laid off are very black and white because they have to be for purposes of lawsuits and all of those things, exactly. So it'll be like oh, if that office is making less than a certain amount of money, those are the people that get fired. That's just how they have to do to avoid those sorts of lawsuits. But then when those restructures happen, they're basically just taking who's left from the people that made the cut, for whatever criteria was actually chosen, and putting them places, and they don't want any of those people to quit, because your highest turnover is often after a layoff. So you think you have 100 employees. You have to lay off 30, you're left with 70. If 10 quit all of a sudden, you're already below capacity. And then you're even more so when you're making those decisions about where to put people. You're thinking where do I need to put people to keep them? And so if you're known, if your reputation is, she's going to say yes to everything. She's going to say no matter what she's going to make it work, no matter what. They're not necessarily going to give you that promotion.
And in one situation I was actually in at the time my favorite job at that company. I was running a whole area office ops, marketing, in charge of the budget, in charge of everything. It was so amazing and so fun. It was my favorite job to the company to date. And we had a restructure and I was given a role of an area sales manager and sales is cool but not my passion, not what I'm really interested in. I was like this is kind of what it is, but I'll do it. And so I managed a small sales team and what it was. And when I got told what my new role was.
I had a conversation with someone a little bit higher up at the company and he told me that there was going to be this regional sales manager role. So the regional sales manager would be managing all the area sales managers for like a pretty large territory. And being that I was already a leader at the company, I asked him. I was like, oh, if that role's open, you know, would you consider me for the role? And he was like you know, we didn't think about that, but yeah, we're going to open it up. Why don't you apply and we'll consider you for the role? And I was like, great, this is perfect. I don't really like this job that I have, but if I was in a regional role where I could be more strategic, where I could manage a team, you know, where I could be helping with larger strategic initiatives, I would be really happy. So then the next day, that person called me and he was like hey, just so you know, we actually put someone else in the role. And I was like you know, not to be honest, I'm a little disappointed. I think I'd be really a good fit.
Like what happened? And what had happened was that this woman was put into a role that she wasn't happy with. So she was a regional director in like a different area and she was like I don't want this role, so they gave her this one instead. So I basically missed out on this role to appease an employee who was unhappy with their role, because whatever reputation she built with a company, they felt that they needed to comply with that instead. And this was a really interesting experience for me because and see, I did it again. She was my boss and I did a lot of her job for her. So a lot of these strategic initiatives she would give me to me to make the report she would, and I did it again. I just did the job I will get. This will help me in the end, I'll do it for her. You know, I just kind of did it. Just being that way over and over again kept me from getting what I actually wanted in life.
0:14:01 - Michelle
Yes, wasn't always the best thing for you, your reputation, your growth, your promotion, whatever it happened to be. You again thought that just showing up doing the work and I will, if I just keep doing this, if I show up quietly, if I put my head down, if I keep working, that it'll all pay off at some point. That this has to be recognized, it has to be noticed, and I think also, as women, we identify with that so much more. We don't take the reward, we don't take the accomplishment as that big of a deal, we don't boost ourselves up in an egocentric way to the people that we work with, to those that were employed by, and we kind of go a long time without recognition. And this can happen in an employment situation as well as in our own businesses, you know, when we think that we just have to keep being behind the scenes, that we're not ready to take the stage, that we've got to put in more work, we have to take more courses, we've got to get more certifications, we've got to do more studying, we've got to have more clients in order to take that next step, that next level up in our businesses. And so being that go-to person, being someone who would just kind of go with the flow, who could catch all for the projects, meant that you weren't building the skill set.
I loved the term that you use have to have. So, instead of just okay to have in the company, just filling a role, you were a have to have so, instead of being a commodity, being someone who was replaceable was detrimental to you, and so the reputation that you had built for yourself by that point didn't put you in the position where you would get promoted. Even though you were likely the better person for the role, they felt okay keeping you where you were and this other person who probably took the accolades and the success seat from you because she was standing on the work that you had done, which is so much of, again, what we do in sacrifice and just another representation of not putting ourselves first in our lives, in our businesses, in the work that we do. So you were doing what you felt like had to be done in order to get the job done, but it seems like that actually can hurt your reputation, as well as maybe personally, in what that shows up in your life.
0:16:23 - Joanna
Yeah, definitely. And you know, at the time when I was in it I didn't get what was going on. And then, as I progressed in my career and other companies, I started. I just like a light bulb went off and I started to see it and understand that you know you have to have that brand, that skill, set who you are, set those boundaries and actually make people see your success. They're not just going to like magically see it.
There's another thing that I learned about, you know, in this process that was a big game changer for me, and it's around this concept called non-promotable tasks. Have you ever heard about non-promotable tasks? No, that's not something I'm familiar with. So non-promotable tasks are things in the workplace that don't necessarily help you get promoted. So these are tasks like taking notes and meetings, planning a party, cleaning up the office, heading up or organizing a special project that's not directly related to a company goal, doing it in some ways.
If you know the concept of the mental load in the home where, like, people talk about cooking dinner as a task. Well, a husband and wife might fight because the woman's always responsible for cooking dinner and the husband might say, oh well, I made dinner last night, but the wife then went grocery shopping, cleaned the kitchen, made sure there were utensils, right. So think about it kind of as the concept of the mental load in the workplace. There's a huge mental load in the workplace, but those things are sort of in that category of non-promotable tasks and the truth is is that this greatly affects women more than men in the workplace. There's been a lot of studies done on this and one of them said that women are 50% more likely to volunteer for these types of tasks than men.
0:18:28 - Michelle
That doesn't surprise me, but it is a huge number. It's something that we do when we're overextending ourselves and you bring up the mental load, which is such a great point when it comes to navigating boundaries within a household and again in your business or the work that you do, knowing how much you're investing in business, in these areas, within these tasks, but not recognizing all of the ways in which you're also giving away your decision-making faculties your ability to focus all of the things that are burdening you in that mental load that often distract you.
So again, 50% of women are more likely to volunteer for these tasks in the business, around the office, in the work that they do that don't necessarily relate to a company KPI, so it makes sense to me. It's just an unfortunate thing to see.
0:19:21 - Joanna
Yeah, and I think what's so interesting about this is we as women. If we're in the corporate world, we're already facing the pay gap, right there's, we tend to get paid less for the same work that Amanda does we also, as a side note, the female-owned businesses don't succeed at the same rate as a male-owned business. They're more likely to go out of business faster, make less money, and I think all of this is related. So both like that, success in the corporate world and the success as a business owner is related to this concept of saying yes, of taking on the mental load and not doing the things that actually move the needle in a business. Right, because we're just so busy taking on all of this other stuff instead of focusing on the things that are going to push either your career forward or your business forward, so we're doing all of this extra work and we're not actually getting anything for it.
0:20:26 - Michelle
Yeah, absolutely, and that is that reputation that you're talking about, that reputation you're creating for yourself. What are you known for? What do people go to you for? How are you creating your authority in the digital space? How are you creating your authority in your position or role with your company?
Also, as a leader, I'm thinking about, if you do have team members or even contractors, how you are seeing these things come out with the people that you work with and how can you help, motivate, inspire, lead them so that they aren't focusing on the non-promotable tasks.
Also, it's just having this conversation about your employees, your contractors within the company should have a certain ROI that they're attached to. They should have a certain KPI. So, whether that is, you are the individual who's attached to that and you want to demonstrate your value to the company, or whether you're a leader, you're managing a team and you have people underneath you. What is their KPI, their ROI, what are they doing within your brand, your company, your presence, in order to move your business forward, in order to bring that reputation to the company and not just wasting their time away on these little non-promotable tasks that maybe are nice to have but not have to have? So, with all of this being said, the mental load, the burden, not building up that reputation, focusing on the non-promotable tasks and constantly saying yes, even though it's not really serving us in the long run. What can you do about it? What can someone do about this and how can they make that change?
0:22:04 - Joanna
I think it could be really easy to learn about all of this and then think, well, I give up victim mentality, there's nothing I can do, I'm just not going to get a promotion, I'm all of those things. I think it could also be really easy to complain about it, right? Complain to your boss, complain to your manager If you're a business owner, complain to your spouse or your partner or a friend and just be like, well, this sucks. The world shouldn't be like this. I should be valued for doing these things. That could be one way to go, but I'm all about solutions, moving forward, making better, incremental change, and so I think what people can do about it.
Something like I really practiced in my last corporate job was when I started at my last corporate job, I really really thought about defining my brand. What did I want to look like, be like present myself, and I think there's layers to it. Part of it is, I think, honestly related to your physical appearance, how you present yourself, how you show up to work, and in this remote working environment, that means things like I made sure I had a well-lit, dedicated workspace. I know that sounds really silly, but I'm in Zoom meetings all day long, so if I was in one room one day, another room one day had a bad camera position, right Like going like this in meetings all day, that kind of thing will make you look less professional and make people think things about you. So thinking through that, the way you carry yourself, the way you look, act are in meetings, on email, communication, all of those things really matter. The other thing is, when thinking about your brand, really being specific about what it is you do. You know, I started as a marketing team of one and grew a team. So as I grew my team, it was also about building the brand of that marketing team. What's the role of this team Like? Who is this team to this company and how does that affect the overall company growth?
And I worked really hard for my own reputation and the reputation of my team to always be thinking about how I positioned our tasks, our accomplishments, what we completed, and always tying them to that company goal and making sure to say, yes, we made that YouTube video. That YouTube video, the purpose of it is to build our brand awareness that we're building it to be content that's connected to our target audience, which is this group of people. People will watch that video, They'll engage with us. They'll get that email because they want to listen about that topic. Then down the road, when we ask them for a demo, they're going to be more likely to open that email and take that demo right. So always drawing the connection to the company result and making it very clear.
That also comes on the other end of it. Making clear what you do but also making sure it's really clear what you don't do. So when a task comes your way, that's not technically you know I was the head of the marketing team when it's not really a marketing task but maybe historically had always been a marketing task, I would say that's actually not a marketing task. Responsibility that really falls under the district success team. So I think so-and-so should lead that project and I'd be happy to assist with that project in these ways. Right, Like in the ways the marketing team should assist, not in the ways you know.
You think it was so I didn't end up project managing anything that wasn't directly related to me or my team's KPIs, and I think that's what happens with a when you say yes, I think it's a perception thing, but it's actually a factual thing. If you're so busy project managing another team's work. You're not focusing on your work, so it does both. It makes you less effective and the perception is you're less effective. So it's kind of a win-win when you actually. It's a win-win for your company when you actually focus on the things you're supposed to focus on and so really defining that, setting those boundaries, not doing those things.
The hardest part starts to come when you start saying no to things other people think would move the needle and like that's where real leadership comes in is when someone brings up a new marketing campaign or marketing idea and you have to actually say no because you don't think it will help the company to tell, like another department leader or even someone above you, that no, this won't actually move the needle and this is why and that gets really hard to do.
But you know that's key here is you're defining your brand, your skill set, you are your team. Do you stop volunteering for stupid things that won't actually make a difference and then you always are tying your work back to those company goals and for a business owner, I think that still seems like philosophy applies, Like you have to be constantly looking at the work you're doing and is it moving your business forward. Is it getting you the result that you want? And because it can be really easy to just do things over and over again because you think they need to be done, instead of actually doing what's going to grow your business.
0:28:04 - Michelle
Those distractions are really, really easy to want to follow. So, when you identify that this is something that you're struggling with, which looks like overextending yourself on tasks and things that don't make sense for you, for the business, for the company, so things that are maybe taking up time but are wasted energy, wasted effort, they're not related to an ROI or KPI, not something that's contributing to the growth, to the expansion, to the sales, to the development of the company or of the business that you're working on, and so often, looking back at who you are, what is your brand, your identity, how are you showing up? And I think that we can all use that tool on a day to day basis. What is our focus today? What are the projects that are priorities? How are we strategically looking at those things?
And it sounds like saying yes to those things, saying yes to the right projects, allowed you to say no to those projects that then weren't serving you. They weren't serving the company, they weren't serving the larger goal of what it is that everyone was in the boat rowing towards. So, as a result of being able to set those boundaries, as a result of being able to practice saying yes to the right things, saying no to those things that weren't right for you or weren't right for the position, weren't right for the department. How did that benefit you and what were the results that you saw in your career? What were some of those changes?
0:29:34 - Joanna
So, honestly, I experienced a complete night and day difference, and I think some of it likely had to do with the fact that I had grown up, I had matured, like there is that reality, right, like when there's a big difference between being in your early 20s and in your early 30s, like you're just a different person. But I also think, thinking about that emphasis of that brand building, personal brand building and that corporate setting just made a huge difference. The first was I got a raise within the first year and then a promotion, like in the first 18 months, like getting a pretty significant promotion pretty easily. Like I built that reputation for myself and it was clear that I needed that to stay with the company. The other kind of strange thing that happened for me was like it's like a weird thing to say, but I kind of like felt like one of the boys, like I was invited to comment on, be part of and talk about initiatives that I never had been before in my career, I think, because it was like oh, we want Joanna's opinion on this specific thing, because that's what she does, right. Like there was that value where I could say this is my perspective as your marketing expert. Right, this is the value that I bring to this conversation, to be that person. And so it was just such a night and day difference when I said no, like people would respect that.
When I was like I don't think we should do this because of XYZ, it was heard and not that ever in a corporate setting. Sometimes your boss will say, nope, we're doing it anyway, and that makes total sense, right? Your CEO has that authority, has that long term vision. They may disagree with you and that's fine, but, like my yeses and noes were being respected in a way they never had been before and it was really fascinating to watch. But the biggest shift for me was when I started acting differently. I saw other people not acting that way and how it affected them. So you know whether and now, at this point, I'm also starting my business doing this full time job.
So I'm around all kinds of people all of the time in all kinds of settings, and I was in a really big, important meeting one day and it was just fascinating to watch because the meeting was over and the meeting ended and immediately after the meeting ended, all of the women in the room started cleaning up. They started putting away the food, putting things in the trash, shifting the chairs, and all of the men in the room got up and chatted with the important people who were visiting. Like I just saw it happen in front of my own eyes, this reality that we face, and now, after listening to this and hearing me, you're probably going to see it everywhere too. Like I see it everywhere. I see women, women speaking up, volunteering for taking notes, for planning parties, for doing all of these things that aren't going to help them towards their career goals. Now, as a random aside, if you want to clean up, if you want to plan parties, if you want to bake cookies, there's like nothing actually wrong with it. You just need to think about how that affects your promotion, how that affects and what you want in your career.
And I started when it comes to some of those things like, oh, what would I? Made up this fake person in my head. Now everyone's going to think I'm totally nuts. I call him Joe the VP of Finance. And I think, like, okay, if you have a company, potluck, what would Joe the VP of Finance do? Well, joe the VP of Finance would either buy something, right. He would either like, just buy something from the store, get it catered and bring it into the potluck, or he'd have his wife cook it. Right? Joe, the VP of Finance isn't going to come in with like these are my special cupcakes that I baked from scratch, that are my. He's not going to do that and not to say again you should never do that. You just need to think about does that actually reflect the brand that I want to have at this company?
0:34:19 - Michelle
This is such a larger discussion of gender roles, right? We're talking about some of the innate differences between men and women, technically speaking, as well as maybe some of those cultural, societal, taught things as well. So we're looking at a nature versus nurture type of situation and we're not neglecting the extension of a non-binary discussion here. I just want to point that out. We are identifying these gender roles that do live within our society male, female, feminine, masculine and the ways in which they show up in our business, in our workplace, in our lives, and there is a distinct difference. And you're very right.
It is okay if that's something that you want to do, if you feel inspired to do these things because it feels good to you and that's how you want to create culture, and that's how you want to create camaraderie or community within your workplace or within your business. That is awesome. But again, noticing when it may be a detriment to your growth. And if you're sitting there questioning why am I not getting promoted, why am I not getting the clients, why am I not making the sales, why am I not being interviewed on the podcast or being asked to be a part of this event as a guest speaker One, you're probably not putting yourself out there enough. But two is, you're probably not demonstrating the authority, the leadership and the expertise that you can in the way that you show up, you're not cultivating that reputation, that reputation in which other people see you and then therefore change the way that they interact with you. So some of the things that you mentioned in the Night and Day difference is of being included, being seen as someone that they could go to to ask for advice, for guidance, because you have delineated your skill set in a particular way that then people see you in that way. So it's a conscious decision, noticing again those things in which you want to change and if you're not seeing the results, if you're not seeing the growth, if you're not seeing the promotion, if you're not seeing even as a team leader, if you're seeing that your team isn't following suit or doing the tasks in your business that you want them to do, that's on you, that is a responsibility that you need to take and own and then you can make the shifts and you can make the changes.
So we've talked a lot about your past as a career person, as a corporate person, which is so fascinating for me to listen to because it's very outside of my realm of awareness. I'm like, ooh, that nine to five person. Look at you, go, you're doing amazing things and some of those, yeah, but some of those people listening may be in that place where they're straddling right. They have the nine to five, but they started a side hustle. Maybe they're still in that corporate position or employee position and they want to start a business, they want to take that leap. Or they're a business owner and they're thinking about how they can manage their team or even grow beyond that solopreneur status, if that's something that they want. So how has this affected you, now that you've evolved into a business owner, now that that is your role?
0:37:30 - Joanna
So I think the first thing to think about is your personal day to day tasks, and this is something I will admit that I'm actively working on is figuring out how to balance your team's needs, your client's needs, with those bigger, high level movement of the company. I think part of that when you do have a lot going on is making sure you're blocking out time for certain things, because for me, I know those big things can get pushed to the side by all of the little needs. So if I block off time to do a specific task, that is that like higher level, push the business forward, it will likely happen. So some of that's just about blocking at your time, making sure you're scheduling and making sure it's important. I think another big thing is recognizing when you need to hire, when you need to hire, so that you can focus on those other things and hire specifically for that task.
It's really funny because, thinking about some of these non-promotable tasks, if you actually make them someone's job, they can be promotable tasks. So if you have someone on your HR team who part of their job is company functions and parties, if that's a piece of their job, all of a sudden they have KPIs related to those parties. But anyway, you can hire to do those jobs. Make it their responsibility. The other thing, too is what's funny is sometimes, as a leader, the mindset shifts. Actually, I made a video on my TikTok about this, about. You know, I made a joke like baking cookies doesn't get you promoted, and like people got mad at me. They were like, well, my boss always makes cookies and they're the boss. And I'm like exactly, when you're the boss, you should, because they don't need to get promoted.
They don't need to get promoted right and like, if you like. That's a different mindset shift than being the boss, being the leader. That's a very different mindset shift than trying to work your way up, and that would be a whole different conversation for another day. But I think making sure, as a business owner, you're not letting your tasks rule you, you're scheduling yourself in a way that is going to make sure you also are focusing on those big picture items and then also hiring when you need to, creating roles and places to say you know someone else should do this. So I can focus on this other thing. The other thing, too, which is really maybe the most exciting thing about starting, you know, starting a business and building a team is that I want to create a work environment that you can do it, for you doesn't put people in a position where they think they need to do five people's jobs that doesn't make them feel strange for not volunteering to host a party or do a thing. That doesn't actually just do that to people. And I think there's a lot that you can do to do that. First is having really clear job descriptions and not actually asking people to do things outside of their job description and if you need someone for a role, you can add it to someone's job description, make it clear.
And for those like mental load things that just exist in a company right now we're not at a size that that really exists. We're all over the place. We don't have a shared office space, those things don't exist, right. But when you think about the idea of there could be a world where there's a virtual happy hour every month at my company and if you start doing those things and you let two or three people run them every time, chances are those people will be women all of a sudden. They are putting all of this work into this company culture happy hour when, instead of asking for volunteers, I could make a schedule, let everybody plan one, keep it even. Or as the boss, I could plan all of them so that that mental loads on me right.
So when you have those things, you can be intentional about how you have it. If you have a shared office space, you can actually just and you don't have a clean up First of all, you should probably just hire a cleaner and make it nobody's job. If you can't hire a cleaner, have a schedule, everybody has to pitch in and it's even across the board. It's not that someone is just doing that work. So I think being aware of this and building a team that doesn't create this problem in the first place is how you can combat it as a business owner.
0:42:10 - Michelle
So noticing that it's happening in the first place, again kind of bringing that awareness. That's what this conversation is all about is making you aware as a listener and starting to notice when it's happening, maybe around you. Once you can kind of see it also start to happen, that's when you can make the change for yourself. Or vice versa, just like Joanna did, where you could start to make those changes in yourself and then you'll start to identify where it actually comes up in the external world. But again, sometimes when we notice those things that we see in others, that change that maybe we think that we could suggest to them to make, we have to first reflect on and say, okay, how can I make that change for myself?
So Joanna mentioned starting with the personal tasks, thinking where in your life are you giving away this power? Where are you diminishing your own reputation? Whether that's in your relationship, whether that's in your family or anything else that you're navigating? And then looking at it, what are the tasks in my day to day basis, on my schedule, within my business, that are maybe those non-promotable tasks? Obviously you're not going to be promoted, but the same principle applies. What are those tasks that are distracting me, potentially wasting time, wasting energy. Why am I focusing on those things when they're not actually leading to the results that I'm wanting within my business?
And then, of course, how can we show up as conscious leaders, how can we show up in a way that we are not putting other women, especially, in a position where they're sacrificing some of these things, where they're always constantly saying yes and not being rewarded for their accomplishments, for their contributions? And how we can cultivate leaders within their role and great team members within their roles to support what we're working towards and the vision that we have as CEOs, as managers, as business owners, as authority figures, influencers, and support that mindset shift within our entire team. So, joanna, as we start to wrap up our conversation today, if there were a few things that maybe you could mention that you really want our listeners to take away from your experience, and everything that we've discussed today about yes, really killing your reputation to a certain extent.
0:44:26 - Joanna
I think the first thing that I want to make sure people hear is that if you are not experiencing the growth that you want in your career, in your business, that you need to recognize that you might be part of that reason why you're not seeing that growth. I think it's important to look inward, examine your action, what you're putting out as your brand, as who you are, and just identify that you could be part of the problem. Once you've done that, that's going to just change a lot of things for you and realize that you have some power here in the situation. The next thing I want to make sure everyone takes away from this is that you should sit down and define what you actually want. What's your goal?
What do you actually want from your career, from your business, from your life? What is it that you want? And then just think strategically about what are the things you're doing that support that and what are the things you're doing that don't actually support that in your life, and then you actually have to do it. But I think the first step is just understanding, right, what do you want? What can you do to support doing what you want?
0:45:32 - Michelle
I love that that is your final thought, because a lot of times we do not reflect on what we want, and choosing and identifying those things that we want and then working towards them is such an important part of again prioritizing yourself in your life in so many ways, but so much of us don't take the time to actually sit back, consider and reflect on, instead of trying to meet somebody else's needs, instead of sacrificing in all of these ways, instead of taking on the burden and not having the boundary in the first place, what do we want and then how can we take the actions relevant to get what we are looking for in that way? So thank you so much for sharing all of your experience today. Thank you for enlightening us because of the growth that you've seen within your personal and professional career, and then how that's translated into becoming a business owner and how we, as leaders again, solopreneurs, business owners, creators within this space really take advantage of some of these learning lessons and principles and apply them to building our reputation, building our authority and determining how we show up in these ways, using the tasks and making the right actions every single day. That's going to move that needle forward. So I think that the biggest takeaway that I have from your story is this concept of boundary, setting this yes or no, and the way in which we see yes or no.
And, as women, a lot of the times we intend to say yes because of either a people-pleasing tendency, a desire to make people like us, or because we have maybe an innate nurturing and sense of responsibility to show up All of the reasons or why are okay and it's fine.
But again, it's identifying what it is for you to set that boundary, what it is for you in your own life, personally and professionally, to figure out what yes and no means for you and how to leverage them so that you can improve your own status within a company, so that you can improve your own business within your work, so that you can improve your own life, and knowing that yes and no, both have a place and that you can decide when you use them and hold that boundary and shifting that mindset to believe that both are okay, depending on the circumstance, and you should have confidence in using them depending on the circumstance.
So thank you so much for sharing everything with us and thank you to our listener for tuning in. Make sure that you subscribe to her first. Definitely leave us a review if you can. We so so appreciate it, especially as this show gets launched and is brand new. Share with a friend, share with your team and if you found something that was beneficial today, share with us. Lastly, what is one thing that you can do today to prioritize you first in business and life?
