0:00:00 - Michelle Pualani
Episode 11, EOS Worldwide. I've been in a really good mood recently.
0:00:06 - Joanna Newton
OK, well, I'm not then, oh oh.
0:00:12 - Michelle Pualani
You know there are two key personality and trait differences between the visionary and the integrator, and the visionary is often the optimist Correct, and the integrator is often the pessimist. Ok, here we go. Welcome to the Her First podcast, a platform to help online business owners, coaches and creators gain the confidence needed to build a successful business while creating a sustainable lifestyle balance. We are here to help you prioritize yourself in business and life. In this episode, Joanna and I are discussing the EOS Worldwide model for business created by Gino Wickman. So, Joanna, let's start off with a quick overview of what even is this EOS model?
0:00:54 - Joanna Newton
So the EOS model is really just a business model that a lot of particularly smaller companies and startups tend to use, but a lot of other larger companies also adopt these strategies, and it's really a system for how to set up a business. One of the big main philosophies of it is that your whole organization really needs to understand the overall vision for your company, know where you're going and be all on track for the same goals and the same thing. So if you were to work through the EOS model, you're going to make sure you develop things like your core values, a core function. You're going to have a 10-year target for your company. They have a three-year picture and a one-year plan. A lot of business plans and models will have these things, but the EOS model does this in a very succinct, kind of like quick way. I feel like that's something I find is a trade of it, and one.
I'm not an expert of the EOS model. I'm just starting to dive into it and learn more about it, but I think it's really fascinating. One of the really big key differences, I think, between this model and other sort of similar systems for running a business is that the underlying belief of all of this is that you need to have two types of people for your business to really really get traction, and that's an integrator and a visionary. And what's really funny is actually the first time I heard about this concept was from you, Michelle. You brought it up when we met for the first time in person at Kajabi Hero Live and said something about being a visionary and needing an integrator, and that I seemed like an integrator and I didn't know what that was. I pretended I knew what it was. I googled it in my hotel room afterwards, but that was actually the first time I heard about this concept.
0:02:43 - Michelle Pualani
I did not know that. I am excited that I was the one that introduced you. So EOS worldwide is something that we're not going to cover all of the details. You can definitely look them up. We're going to include that information in the show note.
But it's entrepreneurial operating systems and I have read Rocket Fuel Traction and I actually worked with a team for a little while who implemented the entire EOS model. So having an implementer is what they call them Having an implementer and then actually a fractional integrator come into the team and be able to support in setting up a lot of the systems. And so, again, we're not going to talk all about these systems today, but that includes things like annual check-ins with your leadership team, having quarterly sessions in which you plan and project for 90-day sprints. It has a lot to do with weekly what they call level 10 meetings, having a meeting poll, since we're having steps within that meeting in which you follow so that you stay on task and you actually accomplish the quote unquote rocks that you are working on. Rocks, coming from the idea of those are the big priorities that the entire company and then each individual team member is also focused on over the duration of that time, so we're not going to get into all of those details today. We're specifically talking about the visionary and the integrator role and how Joanna and myself identify as either one.
I think it's hilarious that I just brought it up randomly at Kajabi here Alive, and introduced us to this topic and now we're chatting about it, because I think it's a really interesting way to look at personalities and business ownership, and it's been something that I've been reflecting on personally a lot recently and we've talked about this in other episodes. But this idea of solopreneurship, which had a little bit about how you might not feel like you are meant to be a solopreneur as a listener or if you feel like you struggle wearing all the hats or doing everything on your own, I'm excited to talk about this concept so that you can own the fact that I get to show up in my strengths in this way and I can also hire out, find, get the support to support me in the areas in which I might be weak or the areas in which I'm actually maybe not even that interested in, and that you can succeed and grow without having to be everything within your company.
0:04:56 - Joanna Newton
And I think it's really interesting focusing on your strengths. What is it that you do best? How do you perform best? I've always kind of been the person which kind of makes sense that I'm an integrator that just fills the role that I need to fill, figures out how to do whatever needs to be done to get the job done. But then now, as a business owner, I'm actually thinking about OK, where do I fit best and where do I want to spend my time? You know, what is it that I want to do? And another sort of fun fact about me is I just generally really love personality tests. Like all of the personality tests, I personally find them really helpful for understanding myself and how I work, both from a professional level, a personal level, as a parent, as a friend, as a spouse, all of those things. And if you want to know, I'm in an eagram type 8 and a Myers-Briggs ENTJ and I'm also an integrator. The high level difference between an integrator and a visionary is that the visionary is that person who has that big picture. Look and Michelle would probably explain it better because she's a visionary has lots of great business ideas, lots of enthusiasm and positivity and always wanting to try new things, do new things, move things forward. And an integrator is the kind of person who knows how to get things done, how to run the show, how to do the day to day and what's really interesting.
I've always known that I was good at business, even as I was just going through the process of starting my career. But I always really struggled understanding what I was good at, and I think the reason is I've always been in marketing. I'm not the best copywriter, but I can do copywriting. I'm not the best designer, but I can make cute little canvas graphics. I'm not the best at a particular marketing skill, but I'm really good at getting things done. And every time I worked at a company, I've always the person who knew how every single system, everything works together. I just even if it wasn't my job or my department, I always just could figure it out and just put all the pieces together.
And I remember once actually, do you know who Marcus Limonius is? I don't think I know that name. No, he's a business person. He's the owner I think he's the CEO of Camping World. It's like a big camping thing. But then he created this show called the Profit and he would go into businesses and help them improve their systems or their brand or whatever it is what they weren't being successful, and he would come in and figure out the problem and do that. I remember watching that show and was like, oh, that's what I do. I was like I don't have to be good at all the pieces. He can come in, he can see a business and he can say, okay, this is what you have going on, these are the problems, this is how we fix them.
I'm guessing Marcus Lamonis is an integrator. I don't know that for sure but, like when I saw that show, I was like, okay, that's who I am, this is who I am, and I think personality types in general are really good for helping us figure out who we are. So I hope that you're gonna play along with us as we go through these. But Michelle and I are just gonna talk about some high level differences between integrators and visionaries. She's a visionary, I'm an integrator. She's gonna have a discussion about the topic and then I'd love you to be thinking about which one you resonate with more. There's also a free quiz on the EOS website, so you can check that out as well, that in the show note so that you can also take the quiz afterwards and let us know if you're a visionary or an integrator.
0:08:27 - Michelle Pualani
One thing that we wanna preface with is that when you hear some of the traits about a visionary and an integrator, you might think that one is better than the other, and it isn't.
The important thing to think about when you're considering these two roles is how they complement each other. Like that's really the idea, is the yin and the yang and how, when they come together, really big things can happen, and there's a lot of pros and cons to each role. So you have to think a little critically about what it is that your natural propensity is and how you can lean into that. And then, of course, find the support and find that compliment to how you show up in your own strengths, in your own business or in what it is that you're working on. So as we present these ideas, you might say, oh, I think I'm in that direction, but again, it's not a good, it's not a bad, it's not this is the right way to be or this is the wrong way to be. It's a matter of better understanding yourself and better understanding your own abilities and how to lean into those abilities. So just keeping that in mind as we go through some of these notions and ideas, Cool, awesome.
0:09:31 - Joanna Newton
And these comparisons we're taking from the EOS website itself. We're just gonna go through the list, talk through them and see what we come up with. So the first key difference between a visionary and an integrator is the visionary is someone who's just full of ideas. I think it's repeated in the book multiple times. So the person coming up with 20 new ideas a week and the integrator is the person who drives your leadership meetings, gets people through an agenda, checks all the things off the list. Do you resonate, Michelle, with being someone who's just full of grand, great ideas? Yes, definitely.
0:10:06 - Michelle Pualani
I think that it's actually the source of more problems than it is solutions. Really, as a visionary, you do also think critically and you can solve the bigger problems. That's one of the key characteristics and traits. But I do wanna point out that it's not that integrators don't have any ideas, they just have different ideas. Their ideas are more around the systems, processes and the actual organizational structure, implementation of how you run an operator business, whereas your visionary, those ideas are gonna be product development. Oh, we could create this type of thing.
This is where we're headed in the future and it's funny because in StrengthsFinder, futuristic thinking is actually one of my top five strengths. So it's that idea of thinking into the future, seeing the big picture and the literal vision of where it is, that you're heading with what you're creating right, so where is the company gonna be in 10 years? What are we gonna look like? What does that brand look like? What do our products look like? Having the creative ability to think in that line and that vision is that visionary role and that's been a problem for me the role of the integrators, to kind of curb the visionary. In that way, the integrator is really the rubber meets the road and we've talked about this before.
But ideas are a dime. A dozen Like ideas can pop up all the time and there are a lot of great ideas, but if you don't bring that idea to the market, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't come to fruition, it doesn't become a business, it doesn't become a product. And so, again, it's about that complimentary piece.
But for me, I know and have demonstrated in my business that product development is a source of an issue, because instead of focusing on one really key product and offer, I've just wanted to create the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And the integrator can come in and say, hey, we haven't profited or monetized this one offer, this one thing. Let's focus on that and let's look at the key operational structure and the team management of how we actually not just bring that product to market but then be able to sell it, monetize it, grow it and scale it. So, yes, I definitely connect with that idea and it's important to lean into that and it's important to brainstorm and it's important to always stay in that creative function. But ultimately, out of your 20 ideas, maybe one will actually be a good idea that sticks and can actually produce some sort of result.
0:12:34 - Joanna Newton
And what's really interesting, if you're thinking about this key difference is my business partner is a visionary and I have worked for lots of like visionary CEOs in my career. When I think about this ideation process that visionaries go through like what happens is I might be talking to a visionary. They give me 10 ideas in one conversation my brain literally comes up with like the 12 step plan all of the systems, all of the people, all of the things we'd have to do to go through that right and as a visionary, you don't always consider all of those steps that are necessary.
0:13:10 - Michelle Pualani
You kind of just think like, oh, let's do this thing. And what we were talking about as we were prepping for the show is we were talking about the challenges of visionaries, which we'll get into a little bit later. But in the books and within EOS they call that whiplash, that idea of whiplash, of the visionary wanting to pivot, wanting to change, wanting to do something different and going in a different direction and the organization can't keep up. The team, the leadership, the actual activities and the execution is unable to keep up with that, which again can be a huge issue for a company If you have a visionary who is not regulated or held accountable or managed in some way by that integrator.
0:13:45 - Joanna Newton
And if you think about how this relationship could work in a perfect world, so like you have a great team, a great organization, an integrator and a visionary who, just like, work very cohesively together, you can see that a visionary integrator can meet, talk about all of these ideas, right, decide together which ones get on a company roadmap and where that sits in a company roadmap and when it's communicated to the greater team.
When this is broken, a visionary just brings all of his ideas or her ideas to the entire team at any time and creates whiplash exactly for a company where a team goes in one direction. You're executing that idea, getting that way, and then like, oops, now we gotta go over here, get this, get that, get that. And then you could see how you could create a world where you have 50 amazing, 80% complete projects. And then, on the flip side, right, if the visionary was being like squashed from having ideas, you could have an integrator sort of running the show, going down a path for a product that like, yeah, it might be done, it might be executed right, but maybe it's not the right thing for the market or not the thing that's gonna be the most exciting or the most innovative for a company. So that balance between driving leadership towards a goal and having ideas, I think is really important.
0:15:12 - Michelle Pualani
You have to have both. I think it's such an important matter to consider that. Again, both of the roles are critically important and I again, as I've evolved in my business, is really learning the importance of having those tools and I used to think that I could fit into the integrator role Even when I started learning about visionary integrator EOS in the beginning. I forget exactly. I think I read RocketFuel first and then I read Traction and then there's an app where you can download and you can listen to a lot of the more technical implementation of the accountability chart, the meeting polls, the level 10 rocks and how you set that up for your organization, your company. They say that their sweet spot for businesses is in the two million annual to 50 million annual. They've worked with outside of that, but that's kind of the range of business and the type of business that they're working with. And the interesting thing I think about the EOS model is that they're also usually coming into businesses that are already established. Even though it's a great model and principle and I'm using the model loosely to actually build, to be honest, beverage Company, my new product-based business it's usually coming in to support teams that are already running and they've hit a ceiling in their profitability or they're having issues within their leadership team or they're declining in sales, and so it's almost meant as a remedy and a tool and a resource to come in and help support that. I think that's an interesting thing to keep in mind is that starting from scratch, usually this model and this system isn't always a part of the foundation of a business, even though if you were just listening to this today and you haven't started your business yet, you could pick up this book, you could pick up these tools and use them to create your business plan and the foundation for which you're launching off of, and I think it would be very helpful.
One thing to keep in mind, on note before we move on to the next differentiating factor between visionary and integrator is that it is a model, it is a system. There are other systems out there, there are other operating systems, there are other ways of creating a business and creating a foundation. This is just one of them, and keeping that in mind, that it's tools, it's resources, it's a way of thinking, it's a way of approaching and a way of structuring. This isn't the end all be all. It's maybe not the gold standard, it's not the only option, knowing that it just is an option and it's a way to think about the business landscape. And it's a way to think about these kind of main two roles that you often see as either COO, ceo or top leadership team or co-founders, and how they can work together to see the success of a company over time.
0:17:48 - Joanna Newton
So the next one we're going to talk about is, I think, a fun one. A big difference between these two roles is the visionary tends to not be focused on just one job. They will bounce around from thing to thing and do all kinds of different things, where the integrator, on the opposite side of that, just tends to have very exceptional project management skills.
0:18:11 - Michelle Pualani
I used to think that I was integrator material like genuinely speaking. People always saw me as highly organized or really exceptional at project management. But when you actually sit down and compare the work that I do versus, again, something like Joanna does or other really successful people in the integrator seat, it pales in comparison. And one of the biggest things that's so, so important for the success of a business, for the success of a brand, for building a presence in any way, is consistency. That consistency looks very different for everyone. That doesn't mean every single day, it doesn't mean consistency just looks different. So just keep that in mind.
But consistency is incredibly challenging for a visionary type and when I look back at the history of five years or so in my online business, you can see the literal inconsistency in so many ways.
And I have started and stopped and started and stopped and started and stopped and for so long I thought that there was something wrong with me or I thought that there was something wrong with how I showed up in my business, but there wasn't.
There's just again, a natural propensity, personality, a trait, a strength of mine in the way that I show up and knowing again, that has given me so much freedom and opportunity to say, ok, awesome, now I'm going to seize that and I'm going to say I can bounce around, so to speak, in these ways while still creating the future vision, while still leading.
One of the big things for visionary is culture, which we'll chat a little bit about. Really thinking about what that looks like for me and the jobs and the roles that I have, versus how I feel like I'm supposed to be showing up, because getting a project started or coming up with the concept, the idea and where I want to go with it, but then executing and following that project, that launch, even social media, consistently has been a struggle. And instead of thinking to myself that again there's something wrong with me, I should be able to do this, why can't I do this? Asking all of those questions and then owning and realizing oh, it's because I'm really not built this way and that I need to find an integrator or have key players within my business that help me with that consistency, because I know it's important and I know that that focus is important really owning that about myself and then being able to find the support in order to make it happen. What's really funny about?
0:20:42 - Joanna Newton
this is how different integrators and visionaries are, can be frustrating in relationships. The visionary is bouncing around doing all kinds of things and I'll tell you that I've felt the pain of being the integrator, feeling like you are literally running behind that person picking up the pieces. I can't tell you how many times, you know. I'm just thinking of like a particular boss that I had once in my life where he would just like set things into motion and think it was like done and great, and then I would have to literally like run behind and say, ok, now that he set this going, I have to quickly do all of these things, all of this, all of this, all of this, and in that way I would end up missing things, because when you take something out of system, you really increase the chances of mistakes happening.
This is like the project manager brain, right, like that side of this, and you can do this to your integrator as a visionary, I think you could do this to a team as an integrator, be running around like oh no, and then all of these people are picking up the pieces behind you to make sure your vision is executed at the highest level.
And if you are a kind and pathetic, sincere human being of a leader. You're still probably going to have a good relationship with your team, but if you are angry, not so tactful with your feedback, you can really burn out a team really fast as they're running behind you picking up the pieces and then again on the flip side, right, like if a just project manager minded person is like running the show, I think sometimes I can create a slower organization. Ok, we have this new idea. Well, we have to set up a system first. Right, like we can't do anything until we have all of the ducks in a row. And that's why, like, we're going to say this over and over again that balance is so important, because you can't be running around fixing things constantly behind. But you also, if you're not pushing things forward, you're not going to grow as fast in your business.
0:22:53 - Michelle Pualani
I think that the respect here is incredibly critical, right? So the respect for your roles within the EOS platform. They say know thyself and be free. Because it's true, it's like once you can own the things that you're good at and you can step into that role and let go of those things. I mean we talk about it in terms of your genius zone as well. What's that book? It's like the Big Leap. It's got the Goldfish on the front. I forget the author. We'll put it in the show notes.
That's a great book and it really talks about the zone of competency, the zone of excellence, the zone of incompetency and the zone of genius and how you fit into that and finding the things that you can show up and do within your role and be good at and be successful at, and you want to find those things. You want to do that for your entire team. So this doesn't just account for the visionary and integrator, but it's your entire leadership team. You know whether that's sales and marketing or operation or finance and accounting tech, whatever that looks like within your accountability chart or your organizational chart, and then obviously trickle down effect into the rest of your roles.
But I think that the important thing is respect. I think that what comes along with visionary can be ego, which is tough because you're looking at someone who's a little bit more front facing. You're looking at someone who's probably more well recognized, maybe even idolized, for their role within the company. When you look at classic visionary integrator pairings like Roy and Walt Disney Walt Disney was very obviously the visionary, but Roy kept the company in business. Same thing when you look at Steve Jobs or Steve I'm going to mispronounce Kazausky, kowalski, kwasniak. Okay, I thought it was.
0:24:34 - Joanna Newton
Wazniak, but like I couldn't you wrong Is that right?
0:24:37 - Michelle Pualani
No, I think it's Wazniak. The details are often lost on me.
0:24:41 - Joanna Newton
Remember Visionary, you're the visionary, I'm the integrator Exactly.
0:24:47 - Michelle Pualani
Yeah, when you look at those classic pairings, you're often seeing someone who is very much the front runner, someone who's taking that like for front, and I think with that comes ego, and so that can be really challenging. Is, I think, that they're, over time, maybe a lack of respect of the visionary for the integrator, and I think that that will cause problems because the integrator does have such an important role. Also, I think if the integrator isn't necessarily in a place, whether that's based on just how the roles were set up in the first place, or whether that's their part of their personality is not having a strong enough sense to speak up and say no, we cannot do that. No, we have to think of these things first. What if we do this and this happens Like they have to sit in that more pessimistic, more rational, more logical seat, and I think if they're maybe not able to speak up as clearly, then that can really viral out of control. So there has to be some sort of equity and respect between the two roles in order to function properly.
0:25:53 - Joanna Newton
But even with that, I think there's a nature of the relationship that's like really really hard. Right, you have that forward-facing person that is casting the vision, moving the company forward in that way, and then you have the person responsible for getting things done, making sure the money is there, making sure the people are there, making sure things actually get executed and completed, and then that person is the person responsible for saying no. And that is hard, Like having to say no all of the time. I have no problem speaking up right, Like in any of my jobs. Now, when that was an employee relationship, that's hard.
Saying no to your boss who is the founder and CEO of a company and having to be that person and winning very infrequently is really really hard. It's really hard but it's like not in me to not say anything, so like being that person to say no. Now in my own business, I'm that person who's having to say no to things. Sometimes that's also hard. It just is hard to have to be that person. It is who I am right, Like I see the potential consequences of things and have that up, but like it can be thankless to be that person because the truth is to your partner or your boss, depending on the situation. You have to be that pessimist and then your team doesn't even see that work you do, that protects them from whiplash. They have no idea. They have no idea what you do for them on a daily basis. This is what I experienced in previous roles, not in my current business. They have no idea, so it becomes very, very thankless. Like it can be a really hard role to fill.
0:27:44 - Michelle Pualani
That is something that they talk about in the book and I think it's really hard for integrators. I don't think it's necessarily always the behind the scenes, because I think a lot of integrators don't want the limelight, they would prefer to be unknown. So I don't think it's that. Not everybody wants that fame, not everybody wants to be recognized in that way. But you're right, that thankless sense of not really being recognized within the organization or within the team, of having such a critical role Because it's one you take for granted I've actually seen it even in a local business setting. I've seen that with co-founders is that someone takes the lead seat in that visionary role and then the integrator takes care of everything when it comes to permits and licensing and financials and expenses and team management and all of those pieces that the visionary doesn't even really realize or see. I can actually see that a little bit in the product-based business that we're building. I wouldn't say that Jeremy's a true integrator. I think that he's fulfilling that role but as the visionary within that company will eventually have an integrator, coo type of position. But Jeremy is, for the time being, fulfilling that and he is really doing the due diligence with the R&D of. We're a hemp infused company, right, so it's CBD, so there are different regulations. He's doing the due diligence of really figuring out what that means to sell in the online space and locally and even to restaurants so that we are legitimate. And he's dealing with the licensing and the permitting and a lot of the business backend and the taxes and the financials.
It makes me think of I don't know if you've seen any of these social media content pieces of relationship and where one of the partners is like me, not having to think about anything when I'm with my spouse, the spouse partner the male typically in the characters are like okay, there's three exits to the left and that guy looks kind of suspicious and we got to think about getting food soon and coffee and like all of these things.
Okay, we have this much time. And then you pan to her and she's like la, da, da, da, da, da, do, do, do, do, do, do, just like moseying along, and I kind of feel that to a big degree. As the visionary is, I don't really think about a lot of those things. I know that they're so critically important, but I don't have the patience, I don't have the detail oriented ability, like spreadsheets. I do not like spreadsheets, I don't like doing that kind of thing. It's not something that I enjoy, it's not something that I want to spend my time doing and I get frustrated really easily if I have to go into that world, and I think what's key here is when you're thinking about these roles or really any personality test.
0:30:23 - Joanna Newton
The key is like figuring out how to operate within your strengths, right. So, as an example, some of the things that are the easiest for me to do don't really take a lot of work on my part. When I share them with people, they're like freaking impressed. Do you know what I mean? Like I'll put together a little project plan in like 20 minutes and someone will be like you're really good at this and I'll be like I didn't even think while I did it, Like that was, I did that in my sleep, right. If you think about getting to the point where like 80% of the work you do is easy, like that for you, you're gonna be like less stressed and happier in all of those things because you're operating in your strengths.
The things that I'm doing are easy and that's really interesting because, right, putting together a spreadsheet. We had a client where some things were like getting confused and no one knew what was going on. So I made this little spreadsheet with like the five current projects and like links to different documents, and then like a little status update took me like 30 seconds. You know what I mean. It's just like throw it all together and like everybody was like, wow, now we know what's going on. You know what I mean, and so I think thinking about those things for me that's realizing, oh, this actually is a skill. When it's easy, I don't think it's a skill that I have, but with it being really helpful for other people and helpful for driving things forward you have to realize that that is actually a skill.
0:31:46 - Michelle Pualani
I think that's important for each of us to recognize within ourselves, even outside. The visionary integrator role is thinking back to the zones the zone of genius, the zone of excellence, the zone of competency and the zone of incompetency is. A lot of times we really fixate on those things that are so easy for us that we don't credit anything to like Joyne it was just talking about but then we also look at all those things that we're not good at and think that we have to improve those things in order to be successful, when really that's not the case. You do want to become aware of the weaknesses, and so what's critically important for me is I listen, watch and learn so much about organizational operation and strategy. I am really taking the time to learn about what an integrator is responsible for the finances, understanding all of those pieces. Do I want to do them or execute them or have that responsibility on a day to day basis? Absolutely not, and that's the other thing the visionary integrator is on a day to day basis, who can keep the business moving forward, who can keep the train on the tracks and actually rolling? Not me, and that's the thing is like. I've just owned that this podcast.
If Joanna and I weren't co-hosting this podcast, it would have already fizzled for me, not because I don't want to do it, not because I don't have topics and ideas and things that I want to talk about, but simply because I wouldn't have had the consistency in the execution to publish on a weekly basis for 10 weeks in a row.
And we're going to continue to keep that up.
But feeling accountable to Joanna and having Joanna keep us on track because she has the project management tool and she's outlined those steps in a really simple and user friendly way, I feel like I can do that and I can show up for that and it's keeping me on track instead of getting distracted and wanting to do something else.
I think just keeping in mind what are those strengths for you and how does that fit into your day to day actions and your day to day choices, cause a lot of times what happens is we get distracted or we procrastinate and then we question ourselves why can't we do this, why can't I show up for this, why am I not doing this more? But when you understand yourself better and you have that self-awareness, it allows you to say, oh, this is not something I want to do on a consistent basis, and it's okay for me to hire out or neglect completely and say it's not important for me right now. What is important for me is focusing on my strengths and how I'm gonna show up on a day to day basis and with action.
0:34:23 - Joanna Newton
The next key difference I want to talk about is that a visionary tends to have a really strong relationship building skills, while the integrator is more focused and thrives in a world where they're meeting goals, meeting timelines. Michelle, any thoughts on that one?
0:34:44 - Michelle Pualani
So for me, I've never really identified or acknowledged this as a strength until I was in a previous role and I was marketing events and partnerships for this multi-million dollar pizza company. But it had a local presence and so I worked with a lot of different organizations, from non-profit to corporations and different things like that within their team and my direct report. The business development specialist from San Diego would come to town and we still have a really great relationship today. But she would come to town and we'd walk through town and of course, one. We're in a small town. There's like 40,000 people, so it's not that big and I've done a lot of different things here. But we'd walk through town and she'd be like you are like the homecoming princess of this area, everybody knows you and everyone's like, oh hey, Michelle, how's it going? And I never thought anything much of that.
But I have a really well connected network. Now I haven't necessarily leveraged that network and I think until this physical product business, I'm really kind of starting to understand how to leverage and utilize a network, but it's always been really easy for me to build relationships. Interestingly enough, relationship building isn't one of my top strengths finder strengths but I think the reason for that is it's not a problem in the initial stages, like I can connect with and meet. I went to an entrepreneurship event this morning. I connected with three key people in that and shared or exchanged contact and connected and communicated. So that's not the problem, it's the maintenance aspect, it's being able to connect and continue to connect with them over time. But even right now I just went to the Yellow Conference and have invited several of those folks to be podcast guest interviews with us. So it's that initial spark and relationship connection piece that I definitely don't have a problem with. I think it's that end piece or that continuation that I definitely struggle with.
0:36:40 - Joanna Newton
And I think what's key to here to think about. You can be a visionary and not be 100% good at every single thing a visionary is great at and you can be an integrator and not be 100% perfect at everything and an integrator is good at. The thought is, where's your tendency? Where do the majority of your strengths lie? When I took there's a quiz that you do it's really funny Brandon, my business partner and I, we both took the quiz and I scored something like an. It was something like 87 on visionary, but I still scored sorry on integrator, but like my visionary score was like in the 60s, so there were things that I went to that were that way. It was funny he actually scored the opposite. So he was in the 80s for visionary and in like the 60s for integrator, because we both have some of those traits. But it's where do you lie? Naturally, what are those things that are good at?
For me, thinking about building relationships, like when it comes to relationship building, like I don't know how to not do things, this like idea of building a relationship not related to like completing tasks, is like weird to me. You know, even when I think about this sounds really strange, but like I have a child. I have a daughter and like when we hang out, I normally come up with activities for us to do and complete. You know what I mean? I'm making a YouTube channel together and I edit her YouTube videos. Like how I show love even I'm like a interpersonal way is by doing stuff for people. That's just like in me, this idea of like sometimes I like have nothing to do very rarely and I'm like, well, I just sit here, what do I do? You know what I mean. And so if you're in my life and I've done something for you, that means that I love you Like honestly. At the end of the day, if I take my time to like do something for you, that's what that means. But I think that's not how a lot of people think about relationships and that 100%, totally okay. But I definitely thrive in a world where I am checking things off a list, getting things done, putting things into motion and completing them.
And as an integrator of like a company, a lot of times you're the start and end point for all tasks. So you're like kicking things off, assigning tasks, getting the project going, your team completes things, you're reviewing, you're finalizing, you're putting your stamp of approval and you're that like start and end cycle of all of those things and you can imagine in a partnership that person. How would they be able to sit and build relationships. They've got 100 things that have to happen in that day. They have to make sure the entire team is getting those 100 things done in that day. They can't sit and chat and brand build and all day long, right, Like how would that even be possible? That's why the relationship is so important.
0:39:35 - Michelle Pualani
Critically important. The thing you brought up is that really it is like an 80% right. If you connect with about 80% of the role, then you are likely leaning towards that, but it doesn't mean that you also share some traits or abilities or have skill sets within the other's role. So that's a really good point to bring up, joanna, because you can have a multitude of things kind of going on and finding that balance. The funny thing is about the meeting of goals and timelines. I know that you, joanna, have already probably felt this is that I am not super great. I'm not super great at sticking to a timeframe and really getting things in when they should.
In an ideal world and now that we're talking about this relationship building piece I've thought about like, okay, what would my ideal day look like? I definitely have those tasks and activities and I love checking things off and I love getting things done, but I don't like the deadline aspect. I don't like having to be accountable to a timeframe. I don't like being held within that construct in some way. And then also I want someone else to be responsible for my task list. In an ideal world, I have an assistant who is responsible for those things and who has that execution strength and I would be out in the world. I love connecting with people and being able to chat. If my people hate meetings, I love meetings. I would prefer to have a meeting rather than be behind the scenes, because I think I can get so much more accomplished and done in a meeting rather than ideating. And I think that's because I lack the execution skill in a lot of ways. So it's harder for me on my own to simply sit down and focus and just see a task through to fruition, and so I think I struggle with that single tasking ability.
I do my best, right Like I use all the tools as a self-care personal development, personal growth coach. I use all the tools. I limit distractions, I turn off notifications, I focus in on the task. I've listed out my priorities, I know what's number one, but I don't fulfill that as well as I could. I struggle with the execution and the consistency of doing it.
I can do the plan, the strategy and outline it, and I have all the tools and the resources and I've set myself in the best situation, but I still really, really struggle to have that focus.
So it's really great to go through these because it is helping me really solidify the ways in which I want to show up in my business and the ways in which I am strong in my business. And I think, if you're listening, a lot of times we discount the things that we're good at, kind of like we talked a little bit about. We discount the things that we are skilled in and that come more naturally and easy to us. And so I've thought to myself oh well, if this is easy for me, that shouldn't be what I get paid for and really it should. That zone of genius is when you should be charging for that thing, especially if it comes easy to you, so kind of shifting that narrative, shifting that mindset around it and knowing that you can own that skill and own that strength and create a successful business or create a successful brand or identity around.
0:42:33 - Joanna Newton
One thing that I'm going to be awfully honest about in this conversation is that maybe if you're an integrator on this call, you're listening to this podcast. It's not a call, it's a podcast. Maybe you'll resonate with this, but for me, so like my brain works like a mini computer, I think, and like I'm just like constantly recalculating and renavigating and like doing all the things and like putting dates to things, getting things done, and sometimes I have been or can be frustrated when other people don't work like me. So it can be frustrating when you know your visionary, like CEO, comes in and says, well, we should do this. And you want to be like well, if that. I just created this whole plan, this whole system, taught the team, got them going, they're going in the direction and now you want to change course, like don't you see the mess you just made? Like I want to like scream, realizing that they don't see the mess that they made and that they might not be capable of seeing the mess that they made, and that's okay. And when I think back at some of my like previous, like employment, I do wonder if I would have saved myself a lot of stress and heart if I understood this relationship and I owned my role more. I actually like took that seriously instead of me feeling the whiplash. That's actually my role to come in and like solidify that.
But I think some visionaries don't actually recognize they need that either, right, and can articulate that they need someone to be that person for them. Just really fascinating, because, you know, I had a job where my boss would just like I said he would just start things and I'm running behind him like fixing everything and making it work. He would then think that what he was doing was effective because I was fixing it. You know what I mean. And I like perpetuated this cycle over and over and over again by going out and fixing it.
I was the actual founder owner of the company. He has a responsibility there. I was just, you know, an employee to like fix that vision, culture of the company. I also perpetuated that by fixing it. And I think it's really interesting to talk through these things, to know that, like, if you're frustrated with a coworker, a spouse, a friend, a business partner, maybe recognizing they don't have the skill set that you have and that's okay, how do you most effectively work together? The next one, Michelle hinted at earlier. This is that the visionary tends to encompass company culture and what that is, while the integrator excels in conflict resolution.
0:45:13 - Michelle Pualani
Not having been the visionary of a larger organization, this one is interesting for me to speak to and I think that this will evolve for me over time. But that being said, I do know that when I have fit into other teams before, I often take the leadership seat of ensuring that everybody works cohesively together, and that's actually one way. Strengths too is kind of seeing what everybody's strong suit is and figuring out how they can kind of come together and work towards something. And being in that leadership role has always come natural to me, especially within the school environment, within a team environment and working with managers or leaders of a smaller organization. I think that setting the tone for the company culture, coming from the visionary, we haven't talked a lot about the core values. As far as EOS and how they pursue core values, we did talk about her first and our core values that we set. Core values essentially in this context are a reflection and they say that they're meant to be discovered. So as opposed to creating them from scratch or kind of pulling them out of thin air, as far as what you think your company should be like or what you imagine it to be, at some point you have to actually look internally and look at the people who are driving the company. The people are the crux of the company and I think that, just for me, knowing that people are the driving force and ensuring that your people are well taken care of, they enjoy what they do, they get what they're doing and they actually show up passionate and in a caring way, they work and they gel together. I think that's a big part of the company culture that I find very valuable, and there's a really great book that I've read. It's called the. I think it's the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. We'll link it in the show notes. That really helped me think differently about how I show up for team members whether that's contractors or assistant or actual employees and how I lead them and show up.
Now, not managed, managed is different. Right, that integrator role is really more managed and all of your team members are accountable to whoever is for lack of a better word right above them in the accountability chart, so that they stay accountable to a certain role, and that management and oversight is different. That integrator function from a company culture perspective is really that we are creating the values and embodying the vision of where we're headed, seeing that future goal and ensuring that that alignment stays on track, whereas, again, the integrator comes in and thinks on a day-to-day basis. How is someone showing up in their role?
And, joanna, I'll definitely let you chat about the conflict resolution piece, because I know that you have way more experience with that. I worked with kids and resolved conflicts in that way but that doesn't really count when it comes to the workplace, so I'll let you cover that one. For me, even thinking to be honest, and what we're looking to create is we have a very purpose-driven product and the company culture in which we're exuding is really important for me to embody whenever I talk about, whenever I share about the company, and then looking for team members who also support that and align with the values and the vision, and so, for me, ensuring that that stays true to the brand is very critically important for my role as the visionary.
0:48:44 - Joanna Newton
Yeah, that's amazing and I think that whole company culture piece, like sharing vision, is a true skill. This is something that when I started freelancing like when I first started freelancing I focused on social media strategy and management. That was really the first thing. I went in on my own. One thing that was really tough for me and that I had to really reflect inwardly on and how to fix this was I would create a strategy for a client. We'd review it, we would talk about it. I'll say this is actually something I'm still working on. We'd review it, talk about it, I'd make materials, present it and all of that. And then sometimes there would still be a confusion in their mind of what the strategy was. This was my first couple of social media clients. I'd be like I don't understand. I gave them the strategy, I did it. They have the strategy, I have the strategy and there would be a strategy. But actually communicating and getting buy-in and understanding on the strategy is not the same thing as having a strategy, and that's something I've worked on over time to get better at and have gotten a lot better at actually communicating that vision and strategy and that having the plan and the strategy and communicating and embodying that plan and the strategy are actually two different skills, and I think that's really important to note. So then the flip side of that I know we're really talking about company culture, but I think vision, strategy sharing, that getting people's buy-in, is part of that overall company culture.
Now, with conflict resolution, this is something I deal with every day, whether it's issues that arise or problems with a client, or issues within teammates or someone makes a mistake. How you deal with that, how you move forward. Dealing with conflict is really, really hard and you have to take some emotion out of it. You know what I mean, like step back. But companies, and when people are working together, when roadblocks come up, when issues come up, that is often where plans stall because no one knows how to move forward. What is that next step? And for me, as an integrator, when I'm thinking about conflict resolution, I'm always thinking about okay, what's the next step? Move us out of this, move us forward. How do we go forward? That's also a skill, right, that's a different skill that not everybody can. Again, I feel like my brain calculator turns on and I think through all of the possible options Like what are our choices here to get out of this and how do we fix it?
This is another one of those things that sometimes being that person can be overwhelming right, and you just think can't someone else just solve this problem? Can't someone else do this? I'm tired, like I don't want to come up with solutions anymore. Do you know what I mean? But, like, when you're good at it, you're good at it, and that's where, like we could talk about this one another day. But that's where, like creating systems and SOPs and processes to get like your brain on paper so that way people can do things without your brain calculator. But being in that conflict resolution C is really important. The next one we're going to talk about is this concept that the visionary is constantly innovating, constantly evolving, and the integrator the word they're using is they are accountable, and it's funny, Michelle, you mentioned earlier that you don't like being accountable.
0:52:21 - Michelle Pualani
Yes, I think that my husband and I actually share this trait is, I think that we have a certain level of issue with authority, and I think it's come up in different ways throughout our life, and so it's tough and, as someone who has tried to be an employee before, I feel like I've shown up and I've done my best, but in some way I dislike it and in some way it always grates me. So there's a certain sense of, I think, entrepreneurship, and not to say that integrators aren't also entrepreneurs, which we can chat about. But one of the things I think that comes up for me when I think about this innovation and this evolution is that forward pacing, that thinking that wanting to do the next thing, having the different product or coming up with a new idea and it's true, you have that tendency. I think. As the visionary and as someone who wants bigger, I'm constantly trying to manage the ways in which I want to grow, change, evolve, diversify, thinking about oh, this would be a really great business model, this would be a really great thing to do. Oh, that's a cool topic, like it's constant. Again, those ideas are prevalent. You have to think about curbing them and actually finding that accountability in some way Now with this podcast. I like being accountable to you, joanna, not because I want to be held accountable to a certain deadline or timeframe, but the end result of the production of this podcast has been invaluable to me.
And seeing that consistency over the past 10 plus weeks and if I didn't have that I would be less satisfied because I wasn't seeing the success and the fruition of something coming to be it's tough because I'm always wrestling, I feel like, with that natural tendency to just want to do something else, to want to do something new, and Jeremy, my husband and partner in this product business, has multiple times told me that as we get this started and as this is launching, I have to stay focused. The social media, the marketing, has to be consistent. I can't just want to shift and do something different. I can't just want to start a new business, which I have done multiple times. So I think it's again one of those things that's projected as a really positive thing, like innovation, evolution. It sounds really wonderful, but it has its caveats and, although it is very important for a business, for entrepreneurship in general, it really has to be curbed by the accountability and even though the accountability is not something that I feel like I naturally lend myself to, the commitment.
I think it's a commitment thing. Before Jeremy and even in early stages of our relationship, I really struggled with commitment and I was just like, oh yeah, whatever, maybe we'll hang out, maybe not. I never really wanted to get married. There was always a sense of not committing to something long term and wanting to keep myself open to opportunity and newness and change and moving and pivots and travel and always have that innovation and evolution as a part of my story and narrative. But having that commitment and security and accountability has been incredibly beneficial and I've seen how it's grounded and balanced and allowed me to be successful. It's like the accountability doesn't curb the evolution and the growth. It supports it in the long term.
0:56:00 - Joanna Newton
When I hit a break it to you, Michelle. Most podcasts don't really see a lot of success for like a year, so we're in it for the long call. You gotta keep going. Oh my gosh, the commitment level that I got myself into.
0:56:17 - Michelle Pualani
The commitment level.
0:56:20 - Joanna Newton
I was the one who had to be convinced. It actually makes a lot of sense here, because you have the idea and we're like, let's do this thing. And I'm like, oh, do I have time to do a thing? But then I decided I was going to do the thing, and now I'm doing the thing.
0:56:39 - Michelle Pualani
Also, I want to point out that not only did I come up with the idea for it, but I was also like, oh, let's take it really simple and easy and, like you know, carefree or, you know, not be super attached to it. And then you came in with all the structure of no, we have to have good equipment, we've got to have a good setup, and it's going to be like this and it has to be launched. So, again, the idea is just one small, very small piece of it. But actually putting the rubber to the road and seeing it through to fruition and knowing that you are so steadfast, for me, like this has been 10 weeks, which is way longer than I've ever kind of committed to, like seeing something through consistently in my business, and that is huge for me and it feels really amazing and it feels freeing.
So I think that for types like myself, the accountability, the consistency, the habit, the scheduling, the routine has always felt really limiting. I have known how important it is. I mean, my other business is her healthy habits and I've always tried to preach the consistency and the routine and the habit formation. But I have struggled on my own to be able to do it, and so I see the importance and I see how critically effective it is at seeing what you want to come to life, but I just I need that accountability. So I'm so glad that you agreed to work on this podcast together because, again, it wouldn't have happened without you. And that is the thing is like I have to stress, if you're listening and you think that you are an integrator and that's a bad thing for whatever reason, or that you think that the visionary is the most key, important piece, they are not Like they it's. They really don't see that success without the integrator. And it is very, very important that the integrator has a very crucial role within a company and within an organization.
0:58:37 - Joanna Newton
And I think when you're, when you're thinking about this accountable piece, I think integrators are sort of embodying accountability, like if they say they're going to do something, they're going to do something. On the other side, if they say they're not going to do something, they're also like not going to do it. So I think sometimes I'll say like, oh, I don't have the time for that, I'm actually just like drawing a line in the sand because this idea of something unknown that wants to get done, occasionally that gives me like a heart attack. So, like a lot of times in like sort of in management stuff, I'll want to just say if we're, if we're working on a bunch of ideas and we sort of decide one's a priority and one's not, I want to say we're shutting that off, we're not going to talk about that idea, think about that idea, do that idea, or say we are going to start that again in six months. I need to take those things from my brain and put them out of my head. If they're not going to happen. This like oh, we should do that. That gives me anxiety. If it's okay, we should do that, let's do that in 2024. That's okay. It can sit out there in February 2024 to come back to me, but things just being like let's do that someday, like that, gives me a lot of anxiety and stress.
I think the other thing too, with that accountability piece, you think about team management and we're going to talk about the accountability chart here, but the idea of an ever evolving you know, constantly innovating person managing lots of people and lots of business functions is tough, and one thing I've dealt with visionaries with is they were like oh, so and so, didn't do that thing I wanted them to do. And then I'll be like did you ask them to do it? And they'll be like I think so. And then we'll like look at the email and I'll be like I don't think we actually asked them to do it, gave them the tools to do that or gave them a deadline, right. So, like, team members need that sort of structure and accountability to get things done. You know, you say I need this. Here are the instructions by this date, and I think that sometimes how you actually get things done. The last key difference that I want to bring up is that visionaries are more this one's interesting, more emotional, while integrators tend to be more logical.
1:00:57 - Michelle Pualani
This one's tough because I don't think that it's as linear, right, I think that there is some wiggle room here. This is a little bit of a gray area for me, the reason being is that I have always considered myself a more logical, rational person, which is true because I lean into like critical thinking and problem-solving in that way. That being said, when I look back at my business experience, I acted emotionally Instead of looking at the data and the analytics, which I'm consulting with. This person right now, who is meant to actually support and help me as an integrator and kind of fulfill that role for a period of time, is. She keeps asking me about the analytics and the data. I'm like yes, totally, I have tracked that. Do I look at it and make decisions from it? No, that's that consistency and follow-through piece that I struggle with.
I know that the analytics of the data are really important. I coach people on it, I consult about it and I instruct them to track, manage and pay attention to. But when I look at the decision-making process that I followed when I was first getting started in business, it was emotional. I was governed by emotions as opposed to stats and data and logic, and I can only, with time, look back at the analytics and say, oh, that was actually a really successful funnel. It was converting all the right percentages and we should have kept that running. We should have kept it scaling. I let the emotional side of myself you know we talk about this in other episodes but the judgment, the insecurity, the doubt, the fears, the sense of self that was tied into what I was doing. I let that govern my decision-making process and what I focused on or what I did or how I showed up. Again, even though I know that, logically and rationally, these things are important, I have failed to pay attention to them and let them guide my decision-making process.
1:02:54 - Joanna Newton
That's really interesting For this one, for me, when I saw it and read about it, I had to think about it a little bit because I'm very emotional. I'm an emotional person. I take criticism really to heart. I'm emotional. I'm a Pisces, so I don't really know much about horoscopes, but Pisces are emotional. When I found out that I looked at moonsigns, I have an Aries moon then it made more sense. I was like, okay, this makes a little bit more sense, but anyway, I'm emotional.
But when it comes down to it, I make decisions and take action more based on logic than my emotions. It's funny because I'm the kind of person who something will make me really emotional and angry, but if I'm supposed to do it for that person who made me angry, I'm still going to do it. I'm still going to move forward and do what makes sense logically, even if I'm emotional while doing it. I'm the kind of person who will get into a fight with my husband not that we fight all the time, but I was supposed to make dinner for him, so I'm still just going to make the dinner. Do you know what I mean?
Whatever it is that I was supposed to do, I'm like well, matt, you, but I'm making the dinner anyway. I'm just going to do what actually makes logical sense. And same with decision making for a business. I might have an emotional reaction, but I will tend to make the decision based on what logically makes the most sense. So I think for me this one's like a bit of a war. Like you, like I kind of fight with this one, but tend to let my logical, rational side win, even if I've experienced both things.
1:04:32 - Michelle Pualani
And I think one thing that stands out to me from the model is that the visionary really fulfills the why and the integrator fulfills the how. So I think when we look at the emotional, logical side of things, that makes sense right, where the visionary is often driving with the purpose and the passion and the emotion behind what it is that you're doing and the integrator is driven by the logical how of doing it.
1:05:00 - Joanna Newton
Yeah, and getting it done and I really hope, as we talk through just a high level of what that is. It kind of made you think about you and like where you fit and where your strengths are. I think that's really important and if you do take the EOS integrator visionary quiz, we'd love to hear from you and know which one you are. I did learn that actually after I took my quiz. You know they sent me this really nice email to let me know that apparently only one in four people are integrators, so I think there are fewer of us in the world. But I think it is good to know and understand whether you're running a business or you're working in the corporate world or whatever it is. Understanding yourself is a great way to move yourself forward.
I do want to move into some thoughts that I had. So I read Traction and as I was reading through it there were some like things I felt were like missing from the equation that while I was reflecting on it I realized have created like stress for me and past and past roles and past jobs. And I know, Michelle, we were talking about it and you said that another book that he wrote kind of fills in some of these things. So I kind of want to talk through it. I'd love to know your perspective to see, like, what I'm missing, what's missing in this model or models or models right, they're not perfect. Like, what are the things that could be?
1:06:22 - Michelle Pualani
involved in them. Like we prefaced in the beginning, EOS model is just one system right. There are other principles and other ways to think about organizing and structuring your business. And yes, Joanna read Traction Rocket fuel is where Gino really talks about that integration of the two roles and how they complement each other and how they work together to see these things that we're talking about execute on a day-to-day basis and within a true business model practically and seeing that evolution and growth over the course of the life of the business.
So we are super excited to chat about the ways in which Joanna thinks that we can improve the model potentially, or some nuances and changes and things that could maybe be different about the model. So we're going to do that in the next episode, Part two coming to you, about the EOS worldwide model and things that we could see either shift, change or maybe be a little bit different about the EOS model and the approach. So thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with your friends and absolutely leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. What is one thing that you can do today to prioritize you in business and life?
