0:00:00 - Joanna Newton
So today we have a very special guest, Jolene Atkins. Jolene is basically my neighbor. We live in a tiny, tiny town, the coolest tiny town in all of Western Pennsylvania. We met by happenstance, one day realized we had a lot in common and have stayed connected ever since. She's an actor, a content creator, a fitness enthusiast and has a fabulous Instagram account where she's very vocal about her issues with MLMs. Jolene, thank you for coming on our show today. Can you start off by telling our listeners more about you?
0:00:37 - Joline Atkins
First thing, when we met and we had so much in common I don't know if you remember that lunch Everything out of our mouth was connected and I'm always so interested in that. So when you invited me to come on, I was like yep, absolutely. And then when I realized what you one of the things that you wanted to speak with me about I was totally trust the scale, because we're like so alike. But everything you said is correct. So my background is in acting, and when we moved to Western Pennsylvania, that morphed into fitness Believe it or not, those two can come together, especially when you're teaching a class and then morphed into content creation, which sometimes I feel is just performing on a digital platform. It's got some of the same quality to it, and I've somehow been able to marry all of these into this beautiful little freelance lifestyle of mine, and I enjoy every single one of them. That's essentially me in a nutshell.
0:01:43 - Michelle Pualani
I'm really looking forward to connect today and I understand how all those things can kind of fit together. You know, a lot of times I feel like we have these paths that we don't really understand how they're going to show up in what it is that we choose to do in our career paths and our businesses. And then you start to pull from things that you didn't even realize you were holding onto and you have this whole tool belt of skills that you can start to pull out in different settings and I think the online space and content creation lends really well to that. And the more you can lean into the person that you are and leverage those things from your past, the more successful you're gonna be in being authentic, in showing up genuinely and really connecting and being relatable to people.
0:02:23 - Joline Atkins
Absolutely, and one of the things that you said that really stuck with me right there was about the tools in your tool belt. I'm from the generation that we went to school to get a certain degree and then we were supposed to do that thing. I only started doing that thing at the age of 50, when social media really started to erupt content creased and short form video Because I was a video production major in college and then never used it and I think it's really interesting that all of the little journeys that I've taken from, let's say, graduating college in 22 to now being 54, I can go back and see how the threads connect. That's something that I'm trying to make sure that my own kids understand. What you're doing right now isn't necessarily all there is. You're gonna learn and you're gonna take pieces and it's gonna continue to move with you as your interest change, as your seasons change, and it is it's all these little tools in the tool belt.
0:03:15 - Joanna Newton
One kind of common thread I think we've had with a lot of our guests is everyone's kind of multi-passionate and multifaceted. We don't tend to want to be one thing, and I think a lot of creative people, a lot of entrepreneurs like fit that thread and see that thread in their lives. And in today's episode we're gonna focus a little bit on one of those threads, which is your experience in the MLM world. And if you're on the internet, online, this can be a bit of one of those like hot topics. You have people on one side joining these organizations. It's life changing, helps them make money, has changed the way they view income and the way they view work.
And then, on the other hand, there are people kind of on the opposite spectrum saying that they're all scams and they're dangerous and there's something to avoid. Today we're gonna kind of talk all about that. What's included in that. But I'd love to start with, for our listeners who are not aware about what an MLM is. So I'd love for you to share with our listeners, who might be less aware of what an MLM is, a little bit of an overview of what they are and how they're structured.
0:04:29 - Joline Atkins
So I'll give you a general overview, because each of the companies are different than one another in terms of the product that they sell and maybe even the compensation plan that they offer, but they're similar in this, then that most of these MLMs have two trains of how you make income. One is by selling retail products and one is by recruiting people onto your team, and I can tell you that the majority of the wealth building is in the recruitment side and not the product side, and that's where we get into most of the issues that anti-MLM content creators will talk about. Certainly, there's issues with the products as well. The amount of like upcharge, if you will, like approaching powder is this much in an MLM, but you can go on Amazon and get one that is just as comparable for so much less. So certainly they've got concerns there, but the bigger concerns are on the recruitment side of the income producing.
0:05:29 - Michelle Pualani
So MLMs we're talking about multi-level marketing companies. These are businesses or organizations who was started by someone as either a service or a physical product. Think like DoTERRA, arbonne, lula, rowe and other similar businesses that have something that they are selling, but the way that they sell it is by bringing on new people to purchase the product in some way and then be able to sell the product and then recruit their teams. So it starts to become this like branching tree of an organization where, instead of just an affiliate opportunity because we talk about affiliate opportunities in the online space and how great they can be in referring businesses to a certain product or service or software this is kind of different. This is someone choosing to almost buy into the business by purchasing the product and then representing the product, trying to sell the product to other people and then also recruit their own team of people to sell. Is that correct?
0:06:30 - Joline Atkins
You gave such a perfect definition of that you win a gold star. That was amazing.
0:06:36 - Michelle Pualani
Thank you. I really appreciate gold stars all the time in everything that I do, because that's my husband. But this is such a great topic for us because in the online space, we see constantly the multi-level marketing style of business, along with other styles of business. So, as we get into this conversation today and as you're listening, just being aware that this is something that is out there and it is likely something that you've either been pitched in the past or will experience in the future Absolutely and some people don't even know or they can't recognize the difference in the online space.
0:07:10 - Joline Atkins
So both seem legitimate. Until you get that DM, that's a hey girl, hey hon. Or you see that comment where someone's saying oh, I'll DM you the information. Those are like two ways that you know. Why won't they just tell me outright why we've got to go to a DM to talk about this? But for a lot of people they may not know the difference when they're just shouting it up on social media. And I could say that because I did those things.
0:07:36 - Joanna Newton
Yeah, and once you see them and you know what they are, you can spot them from a mile away. But when you don't know what they are right, you can totally be convinced that something is a very legitimate business opportunity, when in actuality how you make money is through recruitment and not through actual sales, actual goods and services. You're really just making the majority of your income from that recruitment piece. And I know that you've been in and are still loosely connected to an MLM organization and I'd love to know more about your experience, especially in the early stages, right, how you got started, what you did to become successful, and just kind of paint the picture for us of what that looked like for you.
0:08:26 - Joline Atkins
The early days were so fun and innocent. It was 2010. I had just moved here from another state. We had sold a house during the recession of 2009 and we lost out. We did not win that sale. It was already very stressful moving here and that took a toll on me physically. And I had two little ones, four and eight years old, and I simply wanted to get in shape. But I had children who had never been comfortable in like a YMCA child care center or whatever, so like I literally couldn't go to do something. So I found a company that was super famous for selling workout DVDs and programs and a friend of mine from college was doing it, and so I was like sure, I'll do it with you. I literally bought a program. I couldn't even buy their super famous shape. I didn't even buy that to begin with. I just bought the program. But I bought it as a distributor because I got a discount. This happens to everyone At that point. I was just in it for the discount. So I got this discount and I did this program and, lo and behold, it was one of the best programs this company ever had. They've gone so downhill and I can say that now as a fitness. I'm like, no, there's so many other better ways to do this, but that one so so good.
I watched people watching me and I realized that they were watching me and saying what are you doing? I didn't even know how to recruit or navigate those conversations, yet People were coming to me. I was like, oh, you got to do this with me and that's how we go to what. Do this program with me? Do this program with me Within like the first year or the first year and a half, I had done those super well that I earned and at this point in the company you didn't buy it.
I earned a trip to the Bahamas. My husband and I really went for our 20th anniversary. Nothing stood out to me as being wrong or manipulative. It wasn't until a few years later, when I realized I was the only one in my organization making the kind of money I was making, that I was like wait a minute. We are working so damn hard here. Why is this not panning out for everybody else?
My team, we were all friends. We all got along. We still do. We were never part of a higher part of the pyramid I will use pyramid, you know a bigger team. We were our own little team. We never exploded like some of these big teams. We did things honestly and ethically. And honestly. Because of that I think we weren't one of the top.
Terrible to say, but it's true. Some things I've learned in the past couple of years. I'm like they did what. Well, now I understand, you know. But it was fun and that's the hardest this conversation that, I think, gets lost sometimes in the anti-MOM space that it was really fun. I have actually gone through a grieving process. So says my therapist husband. I've gone through a cycle of grief because once my eyes were opened it really did all change for me and I went through a lot of different emotions with it. So again, it just started innocently and then, like a year and a half, I was thinking it way more seriously and I was being much more calculated about how to make this grow, because I'm not going to lie the money was really nice.
0:11:46 - Michelle Pualani
I think that when people get into something like an MLM, they have this hopeful feeling right, just like anything, just like when you're starting a business, just like when you're taking on a new venture, just when you're starting a new job. There's this youthful optimism that comes along with it. You're really excited and the energy and culture that MLMs really cultivate is kind of that hype mentality of getting in for lack of a better term drinking the Kool-Aid and really getting on board with the identity of the brand and what they're bringing to the market. And I can't say that MLMs are all bad right. That's not what this conversation necessarily is today. It's about highlighting the pros and cons and for each individual person to decide whether it's right for them or not.
The way that I've always seen MLMs is that it's a great business model and structure.
If you're creating the business model and structure, so if you are the person who's creating the product or the service, and then you are saying I'm going to go into this as an MLM and I'm going to recruit and bring on those ambassadors and this is how they're going to pay me and this is how they're going to acquire more people, it's actually genius, like just talking about the business model in general, is really genius.
Now the way that it's been executed, unfortunately, I think, has also gone downhill over time, whereas we probably have brands who are started with the best intentions, but what they're actually cultivating and creating and what's happening down the line is really negative.
And then, of course, there's a different type of person who's going to come into a position within an MLM and they're going to be able to do different things. Certain teams may be successful, other people not as much, and there are different qualities that I think create that success or not. Just like again, in a sales or marketing position, some people don't fit into that sales energy and really essentially you have to have some sort of sales energy in that MLM space. I think that what you experience is probably not unlike a lot of other folks, where they were really excited they were doing well, maybe they were making some money, but it feels like the long term structure and strategy isn't necessarily set up for the individual to succeed within the company and the beginning stages of creating community, showcasing what you're doing, inviting people along in your journey all of those things, I'm sure, Jolene, are things you use in your content creation role.
0:14:12 - Joanna Newton
That's all about building an online brand. Those are all skills related to building an online brand In those early stages. That innocence, that true community, that's something people crave and want. And the question that I have is when does that start to become a problem, which I know for you? You must have had a moment, or maybe it was a series of moments, that turned you off from that world, or something that changed in the organization that changed your mind about what that was for you. Can you speak a little bit to that?
0:14:45 - Joline Atkins
Maybe it began to turn toxic, but I didn't realize that that's what was happening at the time. So you slap on the smile and you sell the product. But I know exactly when things started to change for me, and that's when things started to change for me. When I got certified as a fitness professional, I was part of a and still loosely connected to an MLM in the health and fitness landscape. When I decided to T and went through a number of different certifications, I realized how was I guiding people through their fitness journey when I had no qualification to do so? And that happens a lot because the conversations between distributors and their customers are not regulated in any sort of way. So you can have people in the company saying, oh well, I think you must have a gut health problem. You're not even seeing them clinically. Or you have folks who maybe will be doing creating some videos online and showing them working out, and their form is abysmal Because there's no formal training in any of that at all. The only training that we would ever receive at conferences was on how to recruit. That's it Not even. I mean, we've got a little bit of like product knowledge, but mainly it was how to build your teams.
I remember specifically being at an event and a new trainer had just been hired by the company and what struck me that day was that when they brought her on stage to talk to this group of people, she was going to sports bra and booty short for the interview. And I remember thinking we're at a leadership event to learn about this new program. We weren't working out at the time, we all had notebooks, we're all sitting there, you know, the CEO is on stage and I've never really been that person, but I was like why are you not dressed? Why and not to shame the body or the woman, but it's just the environment that we are in. I'm like we are about to do some product knowledge work. Why are you being marketed like that? So that was the first thing and, of course, I like very, very, very it.
Then I continued to get some certification, not only in just different varieties of fitness, but like overall fitness and nutrition certification, so not just the style and I was also mentored by some people locally who were so good at what they do and I began to learn a little bit more about diet, culture and shaming, and I was these things that are not talked about in this climate, because if you talked about them, your business would not grow. And I began. As I'm going down this path and I'm learning all these new things, I'm watching the company switch to this trainer being the faith. I'm watching that first trainer, who I loved, and some other trainers from when I first came on leave, but I began to see a shift in a focus towards this one faith, this one way to approach nutrition, the fitness format being compromised and being so less than what I came on with in 2010. And that's when the toxicity started to grow.
And at that point I was in leadership and I would speak up about it in our leadership group and I would consistently be told you have a scarcity mindset. I'm like I've asked in question, but my mindset was an issue. That was a very long winded way of saying. I began to see things, I pushed them down and then I watched the pattern persist and even though I tried to speak about it, I couldn't get anywhere.
0:18:30 - Michelle Pualani
So many things that you touched on. Now, I come from the health and wellness space and I was never a part of an MLM in the fitness world. However, I watched them closely while I was in that space, because they can be so incredibly harmful and people do not realize this is that the people getting behind the products and programs have no, oftentimes no knowledge, no experience, no certification, no education on what it is that they're talking about. They may be a skilled salesperson, they may be a skilled marketer and they may really honestly believe in the product themselves, but if they are not qualified to deliver on what it is that they're telling you that they're trying to deliver on, specifically in the health and wellness space, please beware, because, as a certified NASA personal trainer, a certified functional coach and specialist bar trainer, yoga teacher, like I have done a lot of work in that certification space and I've spent a lot of hours in a fitness facility working one to one, working in a group format and when I would see any fitness based MLM type of opportunity and the trainers who, okay, seeing the distributors was always just in my head like, ah gosh, really like, are you seriously? That's how you're showing up and that's how you're doing this and you're really putting people at harm, like you're putting people in harm's way to present information and try to teach, coach, train, do something that you're not qualified to do, especially when we get into if you think about, like essential oils or nutrition shakes, supplements, all of those things If you're not a functional medicine practitioner, a naturopathic doctor or someone who is qualified at a similar level, you should not be telling anyone what they should supplement. And I feel very strongly about this, coming from my background and where I do in the health and wellness space. So I'll get off that pedestal. But it is so important to keep in mind.
One is a consumer and two is a business owner. We each have to decide how we show up ethically in this space as a business owner and I know we're going to talk more about business ownership when it comes to the MLM space but really, ultimately, we each decide how we're going to ethically get into the online space, get on social media and content creation, get into paid ads and live with integrity and market with integrity and sell with integrity or not. And it's something that I have thought about over and over and over again, because when I was in the health and wellness space, it was such a common practice to just oh just talk about weight loss and everybody wants to lose weight and that's just how you're going to have to sell your products and programs, and I just couldn't get on board with that. And I think that we are now in an evolved place, right Like we talk a lot more about body acceptance and diet culture and body shaming and all of the things that you mentioned, which has shifted, thankfully, in our industry, but it's still such a hot topic that really needs to be evolved and changed and be talked about on a larger narrative.
So it's one of the reasons that I actually got out of that industry and don't feel like I fit into the health and wellness space anymore is because I just couldn't agree with what was happening there in the practices.
But I think, on a larger discussion level, there are going to be lots of tactics and strategies in the online space that you start to learn about as a business owner, as a marketer, as anyone who's showing up, as a freelancer, content creator, and we have to decide what we're going to choose to do and how we're going to show up, and then how that aligns with your own core values and, as you're listening, just starting to understand how this shows up for you the decisions that you're making on a daily basis, the way that you're running your business, the marketing tactics that you're choosing to take part in, and really being conscious about those choices and how they can also create the future that you want for yourself, and not just supplement or support something in the short term I have had former team members tell me that we ran an ethical ship.
0:22:36 - Joline Atkins
This is going to be a pretty bold statement, but I think because we had this sounds so arrogant, but because we had integrity once we learned the Maya Angelou quote do the best you can with what you know and then, when you know better, you can do better.
Okay, so, with what we had, with what we knew, we did our very best and then when we learned something new and something better, we did better. And being able to recognize, to read something and be like wait a minute, wait a minute, like I will read something and I will go to the links and I will pour over the person's website First to see what are they selling. This is a beautiful story that you've just given me, but what's behind it and maybe that's that I'm paranoid? Now, I do think that there are similar tactics being used in legitimate business and MLM business, and it is hard to differentiate when those practices are maybe not in your best interest. It's really hard to read between those lines. I want to be ethical, I want to be honest, I want to be authentic, and I think I've gotten my page to that point.
0:23:42 - Joanna Newton
And we speak to business owners here a lot on this podcast and I want to actually speak to our consumer brains for a second and I have a little story. That's an aside but does have a point, so bear with me. I started my career in selling educational products to help people with tests like the SAT, ACT, MCAT, LSAT all of those exams you need to get higher education and through that process I learned a lot More than anyone needs to know about the SAT Actually, I will need to know, because my daughter will likely take the SAT one day More than the average adult needs to know about the SAT, as I learned about the SAT. The SAT is something that comes up a lot on sitcoms. On sitcoms, the funny story about a kid having to take an SAT and it being a disaster is like a common trope that happens in sitcoms and as I watched them I saw how wrong every sitcom got the SAT down to the date and time, what's included, what the acronym stands for which is nothing, by the way, SAT doesn't actually stand for something it did at different points, but College Board actually got sued for the name because the name didn't actually match what it tested. But see again, this is like silly information nobody actually needs to know. So, as I'd be watching these people on TV shows mention the SAT, set up the scope, explain what they had to study for the test, it was all wrong.
The average viewer would have no idea. Average viewer would think, oh, they do ask science questions on the SAT, or it is offered on a Thursday morning. And so, as consumers, we have to be smart and do our research. Just because someone's standing up saying I'm an expert does not mean they are an expert and we have to learn and think and research to get it right. And being in this space where I help coaches and creators and experts launch their businesses is something I'm acutely aware of that we have to be able to back up our knowledge, but we also have to do our research when getting involved. If you get recommended a supplement, even if you're getting recommended a supplement from a doctor or nutrition expert who has the training, you should still go do your research, do some thinking on your own to make sure that's all above board. And if you're an MLM doing the work and doing it ethically, that's fantastic, but not every person in that organization is going to act that way.
0:26:12 - Joline Atkins
I can say this now because I'm culpable. I was a part of all of it, so I have no problem sharing what I now see through the glasses that I'm now wearing. Right, I change glasses. I have no problem going back and saying, okay, but I was a part of all that. So, yeah, I'm going to speak out about it now. But the other thing is people don't know how to research. I don't know how to properly research. That's a hard thing when people say, do your research, do your research, but they don't actually know how to find valid, incredible information. And that's running rampant on social media these days Do your research, do your research, do your research? As if we all know how to read those papers which we don't.
0:26:53 - Joanna Newton
One of the things that I want to come back to is the baseline goal of an MLM is often posed as a business opportunity. It's posed as a business opportunity, an income opportunity, be your own boss hashtag, boss babe, all of that stuff. We are all boss ladies, but in a different sense. But I recently read I was curious and I was looking up some stats around this as I was putting together this outline and I read that it turns out that only 25% of participants actually turn a profit in MLMs. Given that, do you think that the claims MLMs making, the promises they make, are false? And that number seems high to me. It might be high. I didn't do full research. Do you know what I mean here? But looking around, I saw that statistic in a couple of different places that it's 25% of participants turn a profit Because that profit that could be $50.
0:27:55 - Joline Atkins
And there's definitely a great statistic out there and I'm not your statistic girl, I let the anti MLM, you know, look all that stuff up. But the amount, the percentage of people who lose money, which was always entain to me because, being an actress, I already knew, as a freelancer and a contractor, how to record my mileage, you know. Then I get paid for a gig, how to do profit loss, basically. So, like when I was a very asked to purchase kind of this network, I was not front loading any product. I know people who, in order to reach their numbers and to earn points and to earn trips, they would buy, buy, buy. I was like nope, I have one of each product in my house, I do not have six. But those things aren't taught because I would not benefit the overall company if that was taught. I can see people losing an awful lot of money because they don't understand profit loss, because it's not taught to them. I believe you asked me if the claim was fault and I would say the claim is exaggerated. There are promises made and those promises are work from home, retire your husband, be home with your children, your hours are all yours, no one is your boss.
I worked so many hours when I was building my business. I was on calls at nine o'clock at night. I was up in the morning doing my workout and then during the day I'm sending out messages to people, right, and I'm involved in conversations and I'm doing team training calls and one-on-one calls. And if the company would come to town because I was on leadership, I did get wind and dined a lot. I had some great meals, I will say that. But the amount of hours that I worked for, the amount of money that I made, if I were to break it down, I would probably cry. And I made some good money. I made modest money for a top distributor, but even if I were to break that down, I wonder what my profit really was.
0:29:44 - Michelle Pualani
Here's where I want to compare MLMs to other styles of companies, because I think where people get caught up is they think that they're creating something for also future success. Right, because the idea of a business opportunity, the point of essentially creating a business, is not to have something in the short term, right now For that you could go out and get a job and have a salary. If you're creating a business, what you're looking to do is create something that eventually gives you something else, whether that's an exit strategy and you're going to get paid, whether that is more passive style income later on, whether that is time, freedom and opportunity, whatever that is for you, we're often trying to create and pave something for future opportunity with our business structure. In some way, when you're thinking about the business structure that's best going to support you as you get started as a business owner or as you're evolving your current business, thinking about, what do you want that to look like in a year, five years, 10 years from now? Do I want to have a brand and presence that is going to be able to morph into a membership, a group program, one-to-one affiliate partnerships? What does that look like for me and how am I going to leverage that? Am I going into the physical product space and I'm going to continue with this physical product and I'm going to increase the type of things that we're offering and I'm going to grow my e-commerce platform or I'm going to distribute in this way? Am I going to join an MLM and work on building a team making some money now and hope for something in the future?
The thing that I want to center on here is that oftentimes, just like you mentioned, jolene, you have this almost exponential growth perhaps, but then things either plateau and then they start to dip. What I have seen with people's experience with MLMs is that all the time and energy and effort that you're investing now, I think it's promised and it seems like it should pay off over time and dividends, but it doesn't, because you're not essentially investing in your own business and they tell you that you're going to be a business owner, but technically you're not. It's not your business. You are buying into somebody else's business and you're essentially being a sales representative for that business, Instead of investing in your own products, your own programs and actually creating assets that you own, which is the base of a business.
When you think of a business structure, it's asset-based whether that is trademarking, whether that is copywriting, whether that is a digital product, asset library, whether that is a physical product and asset-based, whether you're investing in large pieces of equipment or whether you have a team. There are all these different things that come to assets, and when you are creating an MLM, you don't own any of those assets. That physical product is never yours, and even the team is not technically yours either. And if that team decides to go away they want to stop, they want to get out of it, or they're not even performing very well then you're not going to have continued success, you're not going to have continued income, you're not going to have a continued business. So you've got to think about if I'm going to invest the time, the energy, the resources, if I'm going to get myself into this selling position and marketing position. I probably want to do that and invest in something that's going to pay off in the long run. So again, thinking about that business structure and what is going to work for you.
0:33:10 - Joline Atkins
And, interestingly enough, in several MLMs you have a compliant department. So let's say you were, you dream up some sort of digital planner, you probably have to get clearance from your compliance department of this MLM before you could actually put that out there because technically you could be marketing to other distributors. So I do know like in our company there was a rule that you could not, once you reached a certain level, you couldn't be a part of another MLM. It used to be. You couldn't be a part of an MLM that was similar. Then it became you can't be a part of another MLM at all. So it's new, capping you right there.
And then there were many coaches and that's kind of before affiliate codes. Affiliate codes haven't seemed to be an issue because, interestingly with my company most of the top trainers all have affiliates for so many things. I'm like they are selling so many things and they are like the top trainers of the company, which is so interesting. There are many top distributors who have created other products that they are selling on other platforms. But I also know that you have to speak to compliance about that before you can do that.
0:34:21 - Joanna Newton
So there's a really interesting documentary, I think on Amazon Prime, about Lula Rowe. It's so good and for our listeners, if you want a really visual picture of the world of MLMs, that is a great thing to go watch. One thing that I really kind of noted as I was watching it is Lula Rowe was actually pretty expensive to get in A lot of MLMs. The initial buy-ins pretty cheap. It's like it could be like a $200 starter kit. Just to get started is super cheap.
I think there was one I don't even know if it exists anymore Jamberry Nails. There were these like nail decals. Their opening coach kit was like $200. There's different price points, but the Lula Rowe opening price point was something like $5,000. You had to buy yes, michelle, you had to buy a really big stock and all I could think about was, if you have 5K, go start yourself your own business. If you had taken that $5,000, say you loved clothes, bought some clothes from a wholesale shop, started a Facebook group where you sell clothes, you could use similar tactics and do it for yourself. That wouldn't prevent you from having other businesses. Having that freedom, you could have multiple income streams. You could sell clothes and candles and open up a boutique and have a blast. You could take that 5K and turn it into a legitimate business that's yours at the end of the day.
0:35:48 - Michelle Pualani
I do understand how the MLM structure is really compelling, though, because the idea of starting your own business is really daunting. What am I going to sell? Who am I going to work with? How do I market this? What channels am I going to be on?
I totally get that it can feel incredibly challenging and that the idea of starting your own business from scratch can be really daunting and scary and overwhelming.
And so the idea of buying into an MLM or something that's already created.
They already have marketing materials, they have a product, they have a proven methodology, they have a system in place and their support and structure to support me in marketing and selling and building and growing my team.
All that to be said, even though it seems really enticing, it doesn't mean it's going to pay off in the same way, and again, it could be a short-term opportunity.
It could be something that gives you something in the meantime and maybe it is a fun way for you to connect with friends and family, and if you're okay and comfortable with that and you enjoy the product, maybe that is okay for you.
But the investment of whatever that is, that 5K or whatever you're looking to put into that business the time, the energy and everything else will be much more suited to your own business structure if you do it strategically and if you are thoughtful and intentional about how you approach it. I know that the overwhelm is there and really talking yourself through this or finding the right support right, getting the agency, getting the coach and figuring out a model and a system that's going to work for you to make it less intimidating and make it less overwhelming, because that reward and that payout is going to be much more exponentially effective in your own setup versus buying into someone else's Because it is that easy start and the marketing is done for you and the products are already made and they already have an online presence and all of that that's actually used against you.
0:37:45 - Joline Atkins
Later, when your team is not growing, it becomes you're not working hard enough. You just have to ask more people. All of this stuff is already created for you. It's really interesting how that turns. And suddenly, because maybe you are not getting the customers or earning the points we would earn points, or recruiting the team, it all came back to I'm not putting forth enough effort, even though everything is laid out for me on a platter.
0:38:12 - Joanna Newton
Yeah, the problem's always, always you, never the product, never the organization, it's always you.
0:38:19 - Joline Atkins
One of the important pieces of the training in my network was personal development. So you were always learning stuff about yourself. You needed to change, always learning where you needed to improve, always learning where you needed to grow. So you're always starting from a place where there was more for you to learn, more for you to grow, more for you to get better like constantly and that's actually used in cult tactics. We were constantly reading personal development books, always learning something new about myself. After a while you're like wow, what else can I do?
0:38:55 - Joanna Newton
Yeah, there are definitely a lot of like. You could probably watch some cult documentaries and the Luluro documentary and see some very similar threads between those two things and I actually I don't remember the exact day or time, but a few years ago I made a decision to stop supporting any MLM, Even if the products are good. Actually, I remember the last thing I bought was a pampered chef popcorn maker and I was like, why did? And of course, as soon as I bought it, I got approached to be a consultant. I was like, why did I do this? I'm never doing it again. I actually that was the moment I still like that popcorn maker, but even if the products are good, I've just decided to not support that.
And the reason being is, at least in my experience, I find that many of these organizations are particularly predatory towards women, and you even mentioned a lot of your promises, Jolene, with promises directed at women retire your husband, spend time at home, be with your children. And women are getting these promises of being a business owner, being able to work from home, with just a couple of hours on your phone from your couch, and they're almost targeting women with these opportunities to say they'll have freedom, they'll have more money, they'll have more control all of these things not delivering on those promises, and it feels very predatory towards that particular group. And I'd love to know in your experience if you find that there's almost encouragement or training, or are they really specifically targeting these more vulnerable populations?
0:40:35 - Joline Atkins
Yeah, stay at home moms especially. What's interesting to me is that the same narrative that I used to write on social media, we create this post that really tugged at the heartstrings. I can't remember see, something felt, feel or something you really, you really want to get them to feel, something. They were all targeted towards stay at home moms or women, specifically. What I would write 13 years ago. I am watching distributor use the same narrative today. It's like regurgitated.
I'm like wow, you're really going back to the beginning here and it always seemed to be targeting the people who work full time, the nine to five, which I think I forget in the nine to five that often you get insurance and a 401k. Like I find that fascinating. Even my daughter, who has a new full time job, which is okay job she has a matching 401k. I'm like I forget that part. It's the tugging on the your home alone with your children. You can contribute to your household while getting in shape at the same time and you can create this community and this network of people. I mean, think about moms who are home with their littles and them wanting to be with people.
So, yes, I do think it's very much targeted towards stay at home, mom and women in general. And I did it too, and I at the beginning I can honestly say I wasn't doing it, I was literally sharing my story. But you quickly learn from watching other distributors who are doing very well how to craft those stories. You've got your little hook, you've got your story that really hugs on the heart string, you've got your little call to action and that's how you begin to build interest in what you're doing. And, like as I mentioned, when we first began, it was all very innocent until you realized you missed that one goal that you really wanted and you're so devastated and then you realized, oh okay, so maybe it's not really for helping these people.
0:42:35 - Michelle Pualani
Maybe it really is all for me.
Paralleling this to marketing in general. I'm seeing a lot of content creation around pain point marketing, joanne I'm not sure if you're seeing this too, or Joleen. So there are ways in which you market right, historically and currently it's a lot of the same tactics, right, like, when we think about overarching ideas and concepts and principles and foundation, a lot of it's very similar and it's going to stay similar over time. So pain point marketing is this idea of digging into people's problems where they are, the struggles that they're dealing with, what it is that they're feeling about themselves. That may be in that negative light, and I'm seeing some narratives around. Yes, really do pain point marketing lean into it? No, pain point marketing is gross or icky and I think again, we have to decide which tactics, which principles, we choose in our business.
There are certain sales psychology tactics that are going to be consistent in whatever industry you're in, in whatever business you're in, and you have to decide again how you're going to choose how you're going to show up and whether it works for you or not, whether it fits with your values or not, whether it fits with your brand and your voice or not, and just deciding what that looks like and how it shows up, especially in content creation, and how you are completely front facing and sometimes you're going to do things that are outside of your scope of comfortability. And sometimes you're going to do things that maybe you look back on and say, oh, I can't believe I approached it that way. But I want to encourage you to keep trying. You have to kind of keep giving things a chance or giving things a try, and I think sometimes we get so stuck in listening to how people are projecting or saying or guiding or teaching us to do.
Don't do pain point marketing. Do pain point marketing feed into their worst nightmares, don't feed into those talk to their dreams, speak to the outcome, and it can all get really confusing. So, again, finding those things that work for you. And it might take a little trial and error of saying, okay, well, I'm going to try some pain point marketing Now that didn't feel very good. Okay, I'm going to try the outcome and desire based marketing tactics and just kind of finding what it is that's going to make you feel fulfilled as a person and get the result that you're looking for right Draw in the audience, get the followers, gain the conversions, get the customers, attract the clients and just kind of determining what that looks like for you, instead of looking to other people and saying, oh, they told me to do it this way or they've had success in this way.
0:45:14 - Joline Atkins
So in the network our trainers were distributors. We didn't get a lesson on different marketing techniques. It was basically the old MLM I was trying to say this earlier feel felt found method and that was it. We didn't get to learn any other way to connect because you would basically look to the top dog and you would see what they were doing. They were influencers, and influencers can be positive and negative, but that's what they were. They weren't marketing trainers but because they were top, top distributors, you did exactly what they did and they would cookie cut that for everyone down the line Follow this, follow this, follow this, follow this. So you're not really learning how to make that your own, because everybody is using a script to cookie cutter that because it worked for the people at the top.
0:46:07 - Joanna Newton
Yeah, because you're just like copy and pasting what someone else is doing rather than creating something for yourself, and I'd be really curious to know if you were to. You know you've gone through this experience. You have now have multiple streams of income, working as a content creator, doing other things. If you were to encounter someone face to face who is interested in joining an MLM because they wanted to start a business like, what would you say to them and what sort of alternative might you offer someone? So they have all those problems, right, those pain points. They might be a stay at home mom, they might need a way of creating extra income, Like for them. What's that alternative? How did they do that without necessarily joining an MLM?
0:46:54 - Joline Atkins
So I can find no situation where I can legitimately suggest joining an MLM, so I'll just put that out on the table right now. I thought you had a great suggestion earlier. Mercari Poshmark, right behind that curtain our clothes I'm selling. Does it all fit me anymore? You know learning how to do something like that from home, you know, and selling clothing. I know people who now buy pieces of furniture off of market play and they chalk, paint them or do something to them and refill them. But that all gets back to what Michelle said about how you start a business.
I literally fell into content creation for other people during the pandemic when small businesses in town found that they were now five years behind and didn't know how to use social media. And now everything shut Because I had a good presence online from the MLM that I was with and people knew me in that way. They were asking me hey, can you help me with my social media? It goes back to our original conversation. It was a thread that helped me here. I can't continue weaving that thread, but that thread sure did get me somewhere. But because I was so consistent, I was asked to help in that way and then just grew that business right. So I have a few clients of my own and then I work with a marketing company and I do social for them and for some of their clients.
I fell into it, and so the number one thing I would tell people is what is something that you really love and enjoy? First of all, because if you're gonna do something from home, loving and enjoying it is super important. Number two there's so many opportunities for work from home now. I know people who get a lot of work off of things like upwork. I just got a video job from that because I put up some videos and they were like we need to hire you for a testimonial, bing. Okay, I would point them in those directions. Number one what do you love to do? Number two what is super accessible to you? Like all these closures I need to sell. Number three where can you find opportunities online? And I mean opportunity is online, not from an MLM Like you're saying there are a lot of ways to go about it.
0:48:55 - Michelle Pualani
There are a lot of ways that we can approach the online space. There are a lot of ways to make money, and it's so interesting talking to anyone who's new to the online space, and I love that again. It's almost like that youthful optimism of coming to this and being like, oh, I could create an ebook and I can sell it online, like it's this amazing idea. And on one hand, I'm like, yes, yes, you can, that's something you can do, it's something that I've been aware of for so long, and, on the other hand, I have to remember that not everybody knows about the opportunities that are abound in the online space, whether that is through monetization, whether that is through content creation, whether that is through user-generated content, whether that is through brand deals or affiliate partnerships or, again, membership, group programs, one-to-one digital products, like the list goes on.
There are a lot of ways to go about it and I think that we just have to each individually decide how do I want to show up, what do I want to bring to the world? How do I want to make money? How do I ethically care about this? And the last thing I'll say for our listeners is really that if you feel like it's easier for you to sell somebody else's product over your own, it's not a bad thing, but it usually comes from a lack of confidence, a lack of self-worth and an inability to recognize the value that you bring to the table. So I think the more important question for you is how do I tap into my own value and bring my own experience, my own expertise to the forefront so that I can leverage that? I can create a product around it, I can create a program around it, instead of trying to rely on selling other people's products and programs because you feel like it's easier? That's just one thing that I want you to walk away with as a listener and really start to kind of understand for yourself and how you want to show up in your business.
0:50:47 - Joline Atkins
You have repeated that so many times and I'm going to write that down for myself how do I want to show up in my business? I think people should just write that out A couple of buttons in the notebook how do I want to show up? And when the pandemic hit, I was teaching fitness in person and then, of course, gyms were shut and that's when this space was created and I bought a light and I had a camera and I'm like let's get those classes online. And I'm still doing that. It's definitely not my income producer, but I sure do love it and it reaches certain women who still work out with me several mornings a week, who are still working from home. This worked for them. It meets a need. I make it incredibly accessible, both feasibly and with what kind of content I teach.
But I didn't know how to do any of that. People had been teaching streaming fitness for years, which I didn't know about because I was using just one company right. So now I had to learn. I had to get a mixer, I got a light, I got a mic, I put up a curtain. I'm like I'm learning how to do all these things and it's really what got me through the pandemic and it wasn't always great. Sometimes the audio was terrible. I would mess up while teaching. I mean there were so many things about it that were not polished and yet it was popular. I think people liked the authenticity of it, that it wasn't completely polished all the time and we could interact when we were all shuttered in our homes, and it worked for a time and then I moved on.
0:52:22 - Joanna Newton
One super interesting thing about that story that I think actually weaves with a lot of the other guests we've had on this show is the starting of a business came from solving a real problem. So we talk about pain point marketing. Right, there's a difference between creating pain points that people didn't even know they had or existed and actually solving a real problem. And we had Diane on this podcast who talked about the need for online education for her psychotherapy students and started online courses because of that. They needed the education they couldn't get it in person. She started online. Liz Clancy, who founded HUHA, talking about she saw a need to have menstruation products readily available. It was a problem she saw and is now working to solve it.
And if you're listening and thinking like, what's my business idea, what's the thing I could do? Think about the problems the people in your actual life for you interact with have. How can you solve that for them and what can you do there to solve their problems? Because, likely, if your neighbor's having a problem or someone you talk to every day is having a problem, more people are having that same problem. And I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it a hundred more times, but I think the best business ideas come from those true problems that need a solution. As we wrap up, because we're coming close to the end of our time, I'd love to know, jolene, do you have any final thoughts that you want to share with our listeners?
0:53:53 - Joline Atkins
Well, you see the problem and then you help find a solution for it. I feel like a lot of MLMs create the problem and then make you believe you have the problem and then give you the product to solve the problem. So I just want to say that, because in the year 2022, everybody in my company suddenly had a gut health problem, I predict that in 2024, many of those distributors will now have hormone problems. The second thing I want to say is that I started a lot of things and not started them completely mapped out, polished, perfect or ready to roll. I can say that about my social media content creation.
I went to college in the 80s so I learned how to edit on a manual editor, not digital. I had to relearn how to digitally edit. So I looked back at some of my first reels for clients and thank God they didn't know what they were doing because those reels were bad. But the clients that come to me don't have any idea how to show up on social media at all. You don't have to have the business plan all shiny and bells and whistles and perfectly crafted before you kind of leap in. I did that with social media. I did that with teaching fitness down here in my space and I'm doing that right now as an artistic director for a cultural life and art center in town.
I've never done that before. I'm tripping all over myself and then learning from it and fixing what needs to be fixed adapting, readjusting wait, that doesn't work. We have to do it this way. So it's like you have to have that willingness to mess up. You really have to have a willingness to mess up, and then you have to have a willingness to learn from the mess up. Admit there was a mess up and fix the mess up. Remember, when you know better, you can do better. So, like, if you have that type of work ethic, then you could be creating new streams of income for yourself all the time. Your goal is that you wanna do it well, you wanna bring your best, but you're probably not gonna bring your best on day one. You're gonna have to learn a few things in order for you to find your best, and I do feel like I've had quite a few opportunities to do that In the scope of our bigger discussion today. Bringing my best meant leaving the MLM behind.
0:56:08 - Joanna Newton
Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I loved hearing your story and I think the thing I'm gonna take away from this conversation and I think our listeners can also take away from this conversation is that your business, who you are, what you do is ever evolving, and I think sometimes there's this idea that maybe you are listening to this and you're in an MLM and you know it's not right for you and you wanna move on. You can. You can do that and depart and figure out the thing that's gonna work from you. Or maybe you've wanted to start a business your whole life and it feels too late. It's not. You can learn a new skill, you can move forward with something. You just have to start and maybe it will be bad at first, but you can grow and change and move on. Into that point. I'd love to know, jolene, can you let our listeners know where they can follow you and keep track of what you're doing? I know I follow Jolene. I love her account, so you should too.
0:57:12 - Joline Atkins
So I'm on Instagram at Jolene and it's J-O-L-I-N-E, underscore ATKIN, like the old Atkins diet. And then you can follow the Culture, Life and Art Center that I'm the artistic director for and that is baby bellow B-E-L-L-O-B-F. It's called the baby bellow, and you can find me over there as well. And then my website is just my name JoleneAtkinscom.
0:57:42 - Michelle Pualani
Jolene, thank you so much for joining us today. It was such a pleasure talking to you and getting to hear about your experience. For me, finding that the biggest takeaway is really discernment right Deciding what's right for you as a consumer and as a business owner Because I mean business ownership is obviously a good portion of our lives, but we also live a full life with relationships and choices and especially following the holidays and purchasing and we're spending a lot of money in all these different places is really deciding for ourselves. What do we want, what do we need, how does that fit into the bigger picture? What suits our lifestyle and how is this really gonna serve me in the long run? And you can do that for yourself, personally and professionally, and knowing that it will change and it will evolve. But you can align with what is right for you and not just fit into what someone's telling me I need or what someone tells me that I want or what someone is telling me is the right way. Is that finding that path and that narrative for you?
