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Michelle Pualani: Ever thought about how your relationship impacts your work and vice versa? Well, today you're in for a treat as we chat with intimacy therapist, Katherine Smilas. We're diving into balancing high [00:01:00] achieving entrepreneurship with personal relationships. You'll pick up tips on optimizing your work by nurturing your relationships and mastering work life balance.
Michelle Pualani: We'll talk about why building strong interpersonal skills is key for success, both in business. And love. So from the science behind our nervous system's role in relationships to how our home and work environments influence each other, we are covering a lot in today's episode. Fascinating topics like the vagus nerve response and how our body's fight flight freeze response affects our interactions overall.
Michelle Pualani: Learn how as an entrepreneur, you can avoid projecting work issues onto your partner and rather cultivate a supportive dynamic instead. stay tuned till the end for insights on how practices like Tantra and Taoist relationship principles can boost your energy and creativity.
Michelle Pualani: Plus, we'll discuss a transformative couples intimacy workshop that you don't want to miss in Costa Rica. So ready to strike a balance between work and relationships for greater success and fulfillment? We certainly are. [00:02:00] Welcome Catherine to the show. So excited to have you here today.
Katherine Smailis: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here
Michelle Pualani: So Catherine is a Western medicine trained therapist who left the hospital system to explore more holistic means of healing. She infuses science and spirituality in a way that invites you into an arena of deep expansion. So She specializes in emotional intelligence and nervous system training to bring you sustainable methods of connecting that will be relevant to your relationship for years to come.
Michelle Pualani: Catherine believes in the power that comes from helping couples heal together and that more peace in the world begins with experiencing more peace at home. And that is so true. We know that on this podcast, prioritizing you in business and life, that your personal experience is going to impact your business, your work, how you show up.
Michelle Pualani: And so I'm really excited about this conversation today. Catherine, is there anything that you just want to start with to add about your experience and what we're going to chat about today?
Katherine Smailis: Yes, thank you for that [00:03:00] amazing introduction too. You made me sound so cool and I was like, thank you Just wanted to also say that your podcast is so needed Because we experienced this wave of all these really powerful women who are maybe leaving their nine to five and pursuing their own, um, identity in the realm of business.
Katherine Smailis: And it's coming, it's creating a lot of secondary wave symptoms and, uh, dysfunction, especially, uh, at the. At the level of the nervous system. So just wanted to first say thank you for your work and starting to bring awareness of supporting women in this realm. And also just wanted to continue to support all of the areas that you talked about in past episodes, like decision fatigue, feeling overwhelmed and procrastination and burnout and how all of those things are also things that we experience in our relationship simultaneously as we're experiencing them in business.
Michelle Pualani: Yes, as you notice, Joanna can't be here [00:04:00] today. She's not feeling very well, but I'm really excited to be able to have this conversation because so much of our lives is spent with our intimate partner. I don't know about you if you're listening, whether you are in a long term committed relationship, whether you are dating or perhaps whether you are single through this time, So much of our lives are around this concept of being in tandem with somebody else, right? I know that I'm coming from a long term committed relationship. I've been with my husband now for over the past 10 years. And I think I take for granted all of the time that I spend with him, all that I put on him and all that we experienced together.
Michelle Pualani: So the way that I can better navigate my intimate partnership and my relationship, I believe that the better I'll be able to navigate my business and my life, Prioritizing you in business and life and our relationships are so much a part of that. So how do our relationships really just like interweave into our work and our careers?
Michelle Pualani: I know that's a large question, but kind [00:05:00] of what's the starting place so that we can start to kind of understand this a little bit better?
Katherine Smailis: Yeah, so I'm going to share a photo that I always take people when they come into my space and they're like, I don't know why I need to talk to you, but I really need to talk to you. And this is the first image that I show people to really help. To have a visual representation of how our nervous system responds to daily life and how that's also impacted by higher stress, like starting a new business or in your relationship.
Katherine Smailis: If you're experiencing any sort of turmoil,
Katherine Smailis: so this is a very popular photo that is now being really talked about, in social media and in trauma informed therapy and in breathwork. It's a pretty popular photo. So this demonstrates It's your vagus nerve's response, or your nervous system's response to daily stress. So we have, human behavior is pretty complex, but it's also very simple when we look at something [00:06:00] like this. So we're always, we, our nervous system is activated based on a hierarchy. So this green zone is the, the creative genius zone. This is the intimacy zone. This is where you feel in the flow in your business, you're like, I'm so joyful in the present moment. I feel grounded. I curious, open. I feel safety. I feel connected.
Katherine Smailis: I feel mindful and compassionate. And this is just kind of where we're, we're floating at on a, on a daily basis. It's, it's what also gets us out of bed in the morning, gets you that cup of coffee. So we're always kind of like skating in this green zone, uh, sort of landscape, but you know, in your body, what happens when you feel an activation in your nervous system.
Katherine Smailis: So you hit that squiggly line.
Michelle Pualani: and for those who aren't watching, Catherine has pulled up a beautiful diagram of what it looks like for your nervous system as we're kind of moving about our lives, moving about our own experiences. [00:07:00] And so really briefly at the very bottom, there's a green portion at the top of that.
Michelle Pualani: There's a squiggly line. The middle section is red and then there's this bell curve that happens from the start all the way up into the top section, which is blue and then drops back down. So as Catherine talks about this, you can start to kind of imagine and think about what this looks like for you and kind of what we're referring to here.
Katherine Smailis: it's kind of hard to picture exactly what I'm talking about, but let's just think of it as a ladder. So, at the bottom of the ladder, your feet are on the ground, you feel connected, you feel like, oh, I have lots of resources to be able to move, and I'm with my feet on the ground, I'm not quite climbing the ladder. But all of a sudden, something happens in your nervous system, and you're like midway on the ladder, and you're like, oh, I feel tense in my body. I'm starting to hyper focus on I'm on a ladder. I'm focused on this thing that I'm stuck in, right? Uh, [00:08:00] I want to run away. And then if we're looking at back at the nervous system, this is where you feel those like indications You've either wanting to run away get out of there or fight So you feel these sensations in your body where you're tense you start to hyper focus you might feel emotions like frustration worry and concern irritation anxiety Anger fear panic rage.
Katherine Smailis: These are all body sensations that you can utilize to say Oh, interesting. I noticed based on my emotional state or based on the way my body's feeling that I'm in a state of activation. And this is pretty important in terms of business because when you're starting a new business, how much stress do you have, right? You often go into a fight or flight or a sympathetic state where maybe you're trying to problem solve. How do I build my next funnel? How do I do marketing? How do I do all this? stuff and you begin to get hyper focused on like all of a sudden I'm not good enough [00:09:00] or I'm not X, Y, and Z and then procrastination sets in or all these things that you put in your way because the state of your nervous system is blocking you because you're in a survival state.
Katherine Smailis: You've never been in this territory before. And speaking of the overwhelm, your nervous system is like, I don't have the tools, I don't have the skills, I don't have the knowledge to be able to navigate this challenge I'm experiencing, you climb up a rung on the ladder. So now for people seeing the image, you're in the blue zone, or if you're just visualizing what I'm talking about. You are at the highest part of the ladder. You are afraid of heights and you are at the top of this ladder. Are you able to be available for connection with other people? Are you available for creativity? Or compassion or empathy or love? No, you're hyper focused on I am frozen. I'm not moving. I'm not moving a hair. I can't move. I am [00:10:00] terrified. I feel shut down. I feel hopeless. Can't go anywhere. I'm dissociating. Maybe I'm not even in my body. I feel numb. My body is just in this state of, and just to take a second to kind of connect this again to business. How often do we get in these states? Of overwhelm and then we get frustrated at ourselves like I don't have any sort of I can't take any direction I'm, so lost and confused
Michelle Pualani: just wanted to chime in here, Catherine, because you are speaking my On lack of understood language right now, like you are explaining those things that I feel like I am in the thick of, almost in this paralyzed sense of not knowing exactly what to do. And it feels like on the face of things, like everything is good.
Michelle Pualani: Everything is buttoned up. Life is merry and I have everything I need. Like, it feels like that. [00:11:00] Right? And so you question, I should be very grateful right now. I should have this certain sense of everything is fine. I should be able to get up and do these things, but the language that you're using with procrastination and putting things off and not feeling of overwhelm, even if on a front facing level, you don't feel or seem stressed, this can all be happening internally, right?
Michelle Pualani: So it'll come out and it will really sabotage how you're showing up in your life and in your business.
Katherine Smailis: when you're in a state of overwhelm, and you're trying, you wake up and you're like, I have this dream, I'm so excited, I want to do this thing, and you're pushing and pushing and pushing yourself, all of a sudden your body, your nervous system, will give you some sort of a physical manifestation of an illness. having the stomach bug or the things that you might be dealing with are, in my world, an indication of let's look at the health of the nervous system and see how overtaxed it is because if you're not actively, if you don't have the [00:12:00] understanding or the tools or the skills of the knowledge, you're putting yourself into a state of such high energy that your body has to do something to start to downregulate. And if you don't have an avenue for that to be in a healthy way, your body will be like, okay, cool, I'll just give you an illness because if you get an illness, or you get in a fight with your partner, you'll get to alleviate some of that energy from your system. Which is what happens on the back end. So when we're all the way up on the ladder You can't jump down the ladder to get to ground it You have to climb back down the ladder to get to a state of homeostasis and reconnection to yourself so this is where I see the most people get stuck is that if they're in the blue zone and they're like I feel I'm starting to feel a little bit safer.
Katherine Smailis: Maybe I went on a walk. All of a sudden there's this like influx of emotions that wants to come up. So maybe after you feel like you procrastinated, maybe you're really sad. Like I just wasted so [00:13:00] much time or like I'm so I'm so sad I don't I don't know what to do and people get confused here. But really what's happening is through your emotional expression You're allowing your system to down regulate or deactivate from that high state But so many people are very uncomfortable with like how to process emotions.
Katherine Smailis: What do emotions mean that they almost Teeter totter between overwhelm and the intensity of an emotional state, so you start to dissociate, or you procrastinate further, or you give up on your business altogether. And my job and the work that I do is really to help people to understand what's happening throughout, through their deactivation or their down regulation and use that as information to create more alignment.
Michelle Pualani: what you're presenting is so incredibly important, and I know that it probably feels a little dense if you're listening, because there's a lot here. [00:14:00] a lot to kind of start to sort out. We're going to have Katherine move through this, and then we're going to break this down even further, so if you're listening, and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm, Feeling what Catherine's saying, I've been in that place before.
Michelle Pualani: There's this sensation of this makes sense, but you're not quite sure what to do about it yet. Don't worry because we're going to get there. Okay.
Katherine Smailis: this is my, my 2nd favorite way of describing this because I can describe it a little bit easier. If if you can't see, me on my screen we have a, we have a physical body, and we also have an electromagnetic field that has now been supported by science, I like to make sure that I throw that in there because otherwise this kind of seems woo woo, but they've, they have scientifically proven that we have an electromagnetic field that extends about six feet beyond your body.
Katherine Smailis: So if you're listening, just picture you have this like big ol bubble around you. And the bubble is the signal that your nervous system sends [00:15:00] out into the field to be read by people around you. It's a concept called neuroception, and it's the phenomenon of when you walk into a room, you can kind of tell from someone's vibe if they're feeling a little bit like, you know, shady. They feel unsafe, or they feel unstable, or they feel, angry. And so the job of your nervous system is to read that before you get into physical proximity of this person, and determine if this person is safe or not. And I tell you this because You all can remember a time where you've been in the presence of somebody that they just felt not so good to be around.
Katherine Smailis: So you're constantly feeling the safety or the stability of people around you. This is, this goes, this is the same for you. So if you're having a bad day, if you are feeling overwhelmed and you're procrastinating and you're feeling burnt out, your bubble feels like a certain vibe. and if we're taking this [00:16:00] to relationships, you can see here that your bubble is going to start to bleed into the bubbles of other people. If you're just in a random room and you get in there and you feel someone's off, it's because their vibe is starting to interact with your vibe. And you're like, something feels off about that. If you're in a relationship, this is even more intimate. Whatever you're experiencing in work affects the health and the resiliency and the vitality of this bubble, which impacts your partners.
Katherine Smailis: Health and vitality and resiliency in their bubble. So depending on your nervous system state, you start to impact the people around you because you're always inter, intersecting.
Katherine Smailis: And I'm going to take you to one more photo before we break this down even further. But if you're feeling a state of Overwhelmed panic anxiety where you're like, I feel contracted.
Katherine Smailis: That's a good word to use. I feel very contracted I feel shut down. I feel [00:17:00] not myself What happens is that your bubble it starts to shrink and it starts to turn inward So you start to look like this bubble on the left, and for people that are just listening, your bubble shrinks. And instead, it starts to turn this energetic bubble inward because now you're in a state of survival mode, so you start to pull energy from the field. From the people around you because you need more resources to feel stable to feel secure to feel grounded You're trying to find safety. This is the example of an energy sucker We've all experienced those people to like I am so exhausted after being by that person. They suck the energy out of me I'm exhausted or I'm tired after having a conversation or being in their presence And this is the phenomenon that has birthed my business Knowing that this dynamic in the household, is really impacted, especially in entrepreneurs and people who have really, really busy life. If you're [00:18:00] feeling a certain way and you don't know about all this stuff happening, these are the invisible forces of connection or disconnection in relationships, which again, directly impact your business is impacting your relationship and your relationship is impacting what you produce in the world.
Katherine Smailis: So,
Michelle Pualani: That was amazing. I have so many questions. And again, like there's so much to unpack here, this is so interesting that we're having this conversation because I really believe in serendipity and I really believe in calling in those things that you need in your life at the time that you need them.
Michelle Pualani: And for me, everything has been coming at me in terms of. Be aware of your nervous system. Regulate your nervous system. Like get this in line, be attentive to your energy and how that energy is extending out into the world. And when we think about our own businesses and creating personal brands, that is reflective in our content creation, in our products, in our communities, how we're showing up in front of the camera or on [00:19:00] audio, or even in text messages and emails in our blog articles and how we're communicating with the world.
Michelle Pualani: And so based on that last picture that you were sharing, if our magnetic energetic field has essentially shrunk as a result of fear based thinking that nervous system being dysregulated, right? Then we're not able to positively impact. We're not able to call in. We're not able to magnetize.
Michelle Pualani: We're not able to show up. Instead, in a state of love where that energetic field is extending in positivity, in receptivity, in affecting those clients, those students, those people in our lives that we want to positively impact, right? So, I've got a lot of questions. Let's go ahead and just kind of, like, go back to the beginning without the images.
Michelle Pualani: Kind of give us the breakdown of, okay, how do I know that this is something that's coming up for me? What am I seeing in my life on a day to day [00:20:00] basis that would tell me this is something I need to pay attention to? I might be in that fight, flight, or even freeze place. And then we'll get into what we do when we recognize that we're in that place.
Katherine Smailis: so I think the biggest thing, um, and this is why I specialize in emotional intelligence as well, is starting to be very granular about what are you feeling. baseline. When you wake up in the morning, you already feel like you're in a rush, like you have a list of things to get done and you don't even remember getting out of bed because you're already focused on all the things you have to do. This is very common for entrepreneurs because, you know, you are operating usually from like, Oh, I can't, I have to focus all my energy on this because this is how I survive. So you're immediately waking up in survival mode, which means that you're probably operating from frustration, irritation, anxiety, fear.
Katherine Smailis: And [00:21:00] that's, that's like you're waking up in the middle of your ladder of activation. And so, as soon as you wake up, you already have adrenaline, you already have cortisol as like your dominant neurotransmitters that are present in your body. Which are not sustainable over time. No animal in the animal kingdom can wake up and be in a survival mode state and survive for very long. So if you're like, yeah, that's me. I wake up and I'm already concerned about what I have to do for the day or How you're going to get through the day, how you're going to get all your stuff done, and have time for your family, and have time for creativity, and content creation. By the time you already replay all that stuff, you're in overwhelm. So you might start to dissociate or procrastinate by scrolling on your phone, or daydreaming, or being really, really tired. Your system is trying really hard to tell you like, hey, whatever you're doing as your morning routine is not really helping, Because you're already in a [00:22:00] state of overwhelm and you can't produce anything.
Katherine Smailis: You can't produce anything of quality when you're operating from a state of dissociation or numbness or shutdown or shame or hopelessness. It's just not something that you actually even want to from an energetic, um, emotional intelligence lens, you don't want to produce anything from that because that means you're taking this emotional state and whatever you're birthing into the world is also going to have this like hint of, this is coming from a place of dissociation or scarcity or fear.
Katherine Smailis: And that's what people on the receiving end will feel from you.
Michelle Pualani: This is so critically important if you have a business, if you have a personal brand, if you're showing up with content creation or your creator in any way, shape, or form. And very candidly, This is what I'm experiencing right now, which is so odd that I feel like we're having this conversation at this time, because I have always been the person that's [00:23:00] Productive that gets things done.
Michelle Pualani: I can do the pages. I can create the content. I can show up, write the emails. It's not a problem. And then recently I have had this almost sense of feeling paralyzed in how I'm showing up for my business. And I don't know if that's because we've recently added on the physical product business. And so now it's like, this is a whole new thing.
Michelle Pualani: And so this is a cascade effect of stress and my nervous system responding to something that's new and creating a physical product and launching an e commerce brand. But I'm just so dialed into what you're saying and everything that you're saying is right on point with where I am. So if you're listening, you're not alone.
Michelle Pualani: This is something that you're not. And things correct me if I'm wrong, Catherine, but want to point out, like, you're not lazy. There's nothing wrong with you. This is not like you're doing anything wrong. You're not, not enough. Like, because I have those questions that come up. So what's coming up for me psychologically is more the self doubt and the [00:24:00] insecurity.
Michelle Pualani: Have I lost my gusto did something shift in me so that I'm no longer going to be able to be the successful, productive human being that I was previously, like, again, what's wrong with me? So I'm grateful we're having this conversation because I know that so many other people have been in this place, which makes me question when you look at that bell curve, what sort of timeframe are we working on here?
Michelle Pualani: Is this like in a day you're going from. being okay to fight or flight to freeze and then you come back down. Is it over the course of a month, years that you could potentially be feeling this? Like how does that fit into what we're experiencing and the length of time?
Katherine Smailis: So this is something that is kind of like a wave that we experience many times throughout the day, none of these states are bad. First of all, they're all a normal part of your system saying, okay, this is how this is our capacity for the day. And then based on what we put ourselves through the stress. Sometimes we touch the [00:25:00] edge of the capacity, and then we have indications from our body that we need to take off, take our foot off the gas. So maybe we take a nap or we go and do something that's different than the stressful stimulus, so our system can downregulate. We're constantly ebbing and flowing through the state, but with entrepreneurs, what I've seen is that and people have had past wounding, like everyone, sometimes the states can become more dominant, or you can become more sensitive to the states.
Katherine Smailis: So lots of entrepreneurs have a smaller capacity for connection. and groundedness, and in the present moment. So their green zone, or that bottom tier, might be smaller, and their middle tier, their sympathetic drive, their reactivity, might be the dominant state. So they don't spend very much time in connection before they're already activated into a sympathetic dominant fight or flight state.
Katherine Smailis: Or maybe they're in a place, they're in a season of business where they kind of skip through that sympathetic charge and they're already [00:26:00] overwhelmed. They're stuck in their business. They, they're lots and lots of women right now are feeling burnt out. They're like, yeah, hustle culture. Yeah. Independent woman.
Katherine Smailis: And I'm freaking burnt out because I have not really explored my emotional range or, when you were talking about how you personally feel, I know that there's not to, not to throw this in there, but I know there's a lot of sadness in what you described and how you're feeling in business. And it's like, my question for you would be. How comfortable do you feel with exploring the sadness that you didn't really even know was there?
Michelle Pualani: It's something that. specifically when it comes to the emotional expression has been something I've worked on. Whereas previously, I don't think it was safe for me in growing up in my childhood and everything that I've learned through many years of talk therapy, that it wasn't a place for me to be able to express myself emotionally.
Michelle Pualani: So I couldn't necessarily be sad. Be grieving, be upset, be frustrated, or even be [00:27:00] angry because that wasn't really allowed in the environment that I grew up in. So. As an adult handling these emotions feels like a lot because give me the logical, give me the rational, give me the critical thinking, the problem solving, the straight A's, the sports, everything that's super easy when it comes to that, almost what I would call masculine energy at this point, but the more feminine energy, the more emotional and tuning into my emotions and being more intuitive and aligned with that side of things has been a struggle.
Michelle Pualani: And it has been a process, you know, struggle's a strong word, but it's definitely been a process for me to get to tune in and be okay, being sad, being upset, having that grief and that experience. So that's definitely been something that I have worked on over time. And I want to call out the thing that you mentioned about women.
Michelle Pualani: And I think it's so important that we have this conversation is that with this shift that we're seeing [00:28:00] in the work environment, In the business environment, like you said, independent woman, be strong, go to work full time, do that thing. There's still all of this pressure that comes with home expectation, partnership, family care management, in which we're seeing women and putting them on a pedestal.
Michelle Pualani: If they can be the quote unquote, super woman work full time, launch your business and take care of. Your family, your kids, your partner, cook meals, clean the home, like all of those things that in my mind are slightly outdated, but still very relevant and very much a part of what we're seeing today is really challenging.
Michelle Pualani: And so we need to figure out how we can find that balance, which is a part of this conversation today. What is that work life balance? And how do we really find it from a nervous system perspective from an intimate partner perspective? But it's important to call out that we are idolizing doing it all when [00:29:00] really it's doing us a disservice in the long run, and it's doing other women a disservice by demonstrating that you have to have it all together, putting forward this front, perhaps, that you need to be on point in all of these places.
Katherine Smailis: Yes, and the roles are still very much relevant, and even though they're outdated, they actually live genetically in your nervous system. the way that your parents, your mom, and women that have come before you have learned how to relate to the world are all passed genetically. You know, when you're little and, and you see how your mom reacts or, or responds to, your relationship with your dad. It's, they're demonstrating through modeled behavior, but it's also this like genetic, passed down trait of what women's role is in society. So you're not only fighting against what you perceive to be true and what you perceive not to be true But you're also kind of going against your mold Of what it [00:30:00] means to be a woman in the dynamic of a family And we're changing the mold because society has shifted.
Katherine Smailis: So we have like I said independent entrepreneurial women and the world is not The world is not constructed for the feminine. We don't prioritize rest and recovery, which is a feminine quality, or receptivity. Everything is a, is a dominant, male dominant society, and we see globally, at a more global level, that, that could be the cause of why everything's so imbalanced, why there's so much chaos and destruction and Lots of stuff happening globally because we don't know how to be nurturing.
Katherine Smailis: We don't know how to be loving, compassionate, empathetic, receptive, slowing down, resting, creating a nurturing environment for people to be able to say, I don't have to have my shit together all the time. I don't have to be this alpha on always adrenaline cortisol junkie. I know how to balance my system because I [00:31:00] also know that if I can balance my system and I explore this territory that I don't even know exists, I have more energy to be able to push into creation. And then the other thing I wanted to say is, women are not only impacted by the circadian rhythm of daily fluctuations in hormones and energy, but we also are impacted by our infradian rhythm, which is our menstrual cycle. And this is something I work on very closely with females in my space is like we have a natural Evolution alchemizing process just by being a woman you have more energy at certain times of the month Which is where you can start prioritizing What are things that I need to get done in this time where I have more energy?
Katherine Smailis: And actually allowing yourself on the back end of the month where you start to enter towards menstruation There's a period of like reflection. So how did my last month go? What is it something that I would like to work on in the next month? And then [00:32:00] your period is a time for deep emotional expression. So when you said like, you know, women are not only in the workplace, but then they have to figure out home and like, there's so much I feel in my body. That's a lot of rage that wants to come out of a woman being like, Oh, you know, like there's so much. Rage and so much energy and so much incredible sadness that needs to be processed and that's what the menstrual cycle can be utilized for.
Michelle Pualani: Bringing up the rage is so important because there are so many times when I feel like I'm stifling that. And there are times when I feel aggressive in terms of, like, I just want to be angry right now. I want to hit things. I want to yell. I want to scream. And, uh, I think a lot of times, especially as women, having grown up in this experience of we need to be polite, we need to be soft [00:33:00] spoken, we need to be kind, we need to be good girls, that we're not allowed to fully express ourselves.
Michelle Pualani: And I think that by stifling that, it's causing all of these, like, unwelcome experiences that I think come out of that. Like, yes, 100%. Now with the cycle, when you mentioned the masculine, predominantly masculine environment that we live in and the culture that we live in, that circadian rhythm completely came up to me because we live on a 24 hour cycle, right?
Michelle Pualani: With that male tendency. But every single day I feel like I feel different. And I feel like I can't necessarily get up and do the same thing that I did yesterday. I just feel like there's something different about it. Now, we don't need to get into this too deep, but I think it's. Part of what I've shared on the podcast before, but recently I was diagnosed with a pituitary adenoma, which is a benign tumor that sits on the pituitary gland.
Michelle Pualani: The reason that [00:34:00] we discovered it was because I was having inconsistent cycles. having problems like basically with my overall fertility health and then experiencing elevated levels of prolactin along with bioavailable testosterone, DHEA, and other hormones. And so we did some testing and discovered this pituitary gland adenoma, which is prolactin producing.
Michelle Pualani: So it's a prolactinoma and my very elevated prolactin levels. And so as you're talking, I'm sort of kind of starting to wonder. One, I know that that must have an impact on it and not being able to like live into my cycle and what I should be experiencing on that lunar progression. As well as it brings up the question of where is this experience coming from?
Michelle Pualani: So if someone is feeling dysregulated, is it circumstantial? So okay, I need to change something in my environment or is it something that, okay, if I'm waking up with this. Is there [00:35:00] something else within me that I need to address or attune to or change or shift in some way to start to think about, okay, how do I manage this?
Michelle Pualani: Where is it coming from? Do I need to understand why it's coming about or can I just deal with it and manage it without really understanding the root cause?
Katherine Smailis: A lot of times, uh, when, when someone is telling me about something like that, I always am curious about what's happening in their nervous system, what's their capacity for stress, what is their daily baseline, um, and when you do hit the wall of like, why is this, why is this keep coming up?
Katherine Smailis: Why am I still dealing with this? Do I need to know the root cause? It's almost like, If you were an iPhone and your iPhone's like, we don't have that version. We don't, we need the software in order to, we need the software upgrade in order to move past the container or the mold or the program that we have access to. bringing into intimacy into this. It's like, when you feel stretched, when you [00:36:00] feel overwhelmed, you're actually touching the boundary of what you have capacity for. Which is not a bad thing. It's information to say, Oh, okay, I'm hitting where I have capacity for, which is good because now I know that there's a inside the capacity.
Katherine Smailis: And I know there's more stretch to be given, but I just don't have the tools. So this would be a good opportunity to, if I'm working with a couple, I give them usually prompts. have them go on a walk, where you're walking side by side, and maybe you're trying to work through something where it's beyond your capacity. So, I give them a prompt, and it's like, for instance, where in life do you feel stuck right now? And you turn on the timer, and you have ten minutes to free flow answer what the stuckness feels like. Why do I feel like I'm stuck? And hearing yourself talk, you enter a different brainwave state. So if you're having the conversation face to face, lots of times that's very triggering or [00:37:00] threatening to us because if we're animals in the animal kingdom looking at each other, it's a sign of threat. You're looking in this animal's eye, and it triggers, I am feeling insecure about being vulnerable because this person's looking at me. So if you can stand next to each other, you're giving your nervous system information about your visual field to help you to orient to safety. So you can see the sky, you can see the ground, you can see I have a left exit, I have a right exit.
Katherine Smailis: So it allows you to stay in your body. While you access a different brainwave state. So let's say you get more into theta, not alpha alpha is when you're the most engaged. So you drop into a different brainwave state. You allow your subconscious to start to talk and you might be able to answer your own question in 10 minutes just by allowing yourself to feel safe enough to really actually
Michelle Pualani: A good reminder that it's important not to keep all these things inside. Right. So often we get in [00:38:00] our own vicious cycle of this negative self talk or just self talk in general, not necessarily always negative, but we spin our wheels and sometimes we just repeat and repeat and repeat. And so I think having the practice of actually getting it out into the world, sharing it is really important, which.
Michelle Pualani: With this question of intimacy and intimate partners, right? Like how does this other partner come into our nervous system and how is that important? And why is it important that we start to think more critically about either involving them in the process? Like you said, have that practice of walking side by side and sharing.
Michelle Pualani: Or being more mindful about how we are already engaging them in the process when we're in a state of fight, flight, or freeze.
Katherine Smailis: If we're thinking of like how relationships can Impact and revitalize your business in a positive way. When you have the education of like what the potential of a [00:39:00] relationship can do for you and you know, its power, you start to be able to implement, lots of like therapeutic modalities that will just strengthen the relationship.
Katherine Smailis: You're involving your other person by. Both understanding the language of the nervous system. So that's like, when I'm working with a couple, I teach them the language of the nervous system because it, because it's the actual mutual, universal language that everyone understands beyond, like, spoken language.
Katherine Smailis: So it doesn't matter whatever language you speak as your primary language. The language of the nervous system is an invisible force that everyone Everyone responds to non verbally tone of voice, body positioning, um, how you feel based on your emotional state. So those invisible forces are things that you're bringing home with you. And, unfortunately, you can like negatively impact your partner's [00:40:00] health based off of your bubble. So because you're so susceptible to these bubbles interacting in such an intimate way, and in Taoist philosophy, in Tantra, and in sex, you're sharing energy fields. You're sharing energy back and forth, so it could either be the reason why you have optimal states of health, or why you're feeling really, like, really poorly. And you might not even know why, so then you kind of give it the excuse that I'm just sick, or I'm just going through this thing, or I just feel bad. It's like your partner is directly impacting you, um, whether you know that they are or not.
Michelle Pualani: One of the really interesting things that you shared with me was conflating your partner with some of your issues to explain when you're having difficulties in your work or in your business. And you start to kind of unload on your partner. You share with them, Oh, I'm so frustrated. This happened today, or I can't believe that this isn't working.
Michelle Pualani: And all of those things, you can actually start to conflate them with being the source of those issues. Can you tell us a little bit [00:41:00] more about that and hopefully how we can avoid that as business owners?
Katherine Smailis: So, in the emotional intelligence realm, we talk about, uh, sharing things with people, and being very intentional about it. So if you're sharing something with your partner to Complain, you know, you have to be very responsible for like what you're sharing. Am I complaining about this? Am I trying to actively process with them? and if those two things are the case, like if you could be really honest, you're like, I'm either complaining, I'm stuck in this story, or I'm actively trying to process with them, you're offloading the high negative charge onto your partner. So now you create this experience of like we call it a catabolic reaction in your body.
Katherine Smailis: So it's like this it's a toxic catabolic is like cat catastrophic you could think of it like that You're creating this toxic environment that you're saying my I feel very toxic inside very chaotic I'm going to offload it to you so you can absorb some of [00:42:00] that. And if that's the dynamic that you have, over time, subconsciously, you start to associate, well, my partner's always complaining, they always feel poor.
Katherine Smailis: So you're like that little bubble that starts to suck energy in, Now every time I see my partner pick up a cup in a certain way, I know she's she's gonna tell me something bad is going on in my business or her business, and I'm just like anticipating that this conversation is going to lead us in the direction of me not feeling great. So subconsciously over time, little things like the invisible forces or that nonverbal communication starts to signal to your subconscious, signal to your subconscious. Nervous system. Oh man, here she goes again. We're about to have another conversation that I'm not ready to Process through with her because I'm not a therapist and like I'm also dealing with my own stuff.
Michelle Pualani: So we have to be really careful about what we're even sharing and how we're sharing with an intimate partner and how we show up in our relationships. if you are a business owner or you're [00:43:00] dealing with anything in work, the important thing is to find a good modality to be able to express, whether that's a therapist or an opportunity, if you have any.
Michelle Pualani: Other ideas, Catherine, to be able to express yourself instead of just unloading on your partner.
Katherine Smailis: Yes, of course so talking with a therapist or Having and I can provide some some prompts that you can call a trusted ally That you know is not going to collaborate in your victimized story But rather it's gonna listen and you can I even use like red light green light Systems where you could say hey, this is a red light situation.
Katherine Smailis: I just need you to listen While I'm processing through this or green light means I'm going to tell you what I'm thinking and I would love your feedback So you can do that with a trusted friend. That's like third party, you know, not in your immediate relationship I always suggest to people to get out of the house go on a walk a long enough walk where you don't have the distraction of even your phone or music so that you're like [00:44:00] having to experience the world and walk for long enough where you start to get some downloads of like An immediate thing that you can do or an immediate, insight.
Katherine Smailis: And this happens also when you, learn about your nervous system and you learn what's happening when you're walking outside. you're down regulating, you're deactivating your system, and when you do hit that state of like, okay, I feel safe, I know I'm outside, I'm, I'm reconnected, you can start to listen to the strength and the wisdom that comes from your intuition and your instincts.
Katherine Smailis: this is when you. Start to connect to that universal intelligence that lives beyond us into this, this huge universal field that exists, you start to be able to download. And I know everyone has experienced that, which is probably the reason why they're in entrepreneurship. They got an idea one day that their nine to five wasn't working, or they weren't feeling excited about what they were doing. And so that intuition told them to do something else, which sparked a whole different trajectory of their life. So, [00:45:00] when you do get quiet, you start to be able to connect to a higher version of yourself, and allows you to start to answer your question. Okay, great. So, you've processed with a friend, you've gone outside. Then I start to say, okay, go back and start to write. Like what is your dominant feeling right now? I feel overwhelmed great right overwhelmed and then start a timer 10 minutes Write down everything that you're feeling right now. It's the same sort of cathartic Thing that you can do as well and you'll start to just pick up on maybe there's some cyclical stuff That's happening some patterning that is happening in my processing.
Katherine Smailis: And so now i'm not Word vomiting to try to process. Now I have something tangible and I'm like, I feel overwhelmed because I am not good. This is personal experience. I'm not good at funnels or backend and stuff. So I get overwhelmed when I have to think about like doing all of that stuff. I love the stuff I'm talking to you about.
Katherine Smailis: I can help people all day. Navigate there. You know, [00:46:00] territory. I'm over here. Like, let's talk about your childhood. Let's look at your nervous system. I do not want to do funnels again. Okay, that is something for me. Now I can go to my partner and say, I am feeling overwhelmed because I decided I'm not a person that has a very strong masculine ability to do marketing and business. Now, I'm not processing, I feel overwhelmed, and you're just like spinning. You have a very actionable, tangible thing that you can now talk about. And it's not coming from a place of catabolic chaos. It's coming from a place of neutrality, understanding, alignment, and action oriented, which is much more easy for your partner to digest.
Michelle Pualani: So you mentioned going for a walk, getting out into nature. There are other practices that I've heard of like breath work, meditation, baths, and things like that. Would you encourage someone to explore those types of things to help with this nervous system dysregulation?
Katherine Smailis: in my [00:47:00] realm, nervous system, and I also incorporate somatics into session, but if you're feeling a really high charge, like you're in, you're in sympathetic, you're angry, or you're just feeling a lot of energy, like sitting in meditation is not going to be super easy because your thoughts are going to be like, you know, they're going to be everywhere.
Katherine Smailis: And even breath work, sometimes it's hard to like sit down and start breathing. I would rather first add movement. So maybe you go on a walk first, you go on a brisk walk, and then you connect to, okay, I'm walking, I'm discharging some of this, and then now I'm breathing. Okay, now I'm breathing, taking a deep breath, and now I might be able to sit on a park bench and actually, like, sit down. And I don't feel like my insides are running all over the place. there's lots of videos about animals in the wild. Responding to fight or flight and then freeze and there's a one study that I just like to share It's of two pigeons so the first pigeon was [00:48:00] in distress and then it got it somebody scared it and the pigeon was like in distress before it was before it was in a frozen state and When it came back online It had to resort back to the crazy, like, running around.
Katherine Smailis: I just was scared by this person running after me. It had to shake off all that energy in order for it to come back down to baseline. And then there's another, there's another pigeon that they, uh, they just scared right away and it just passed out. But it wasn't impacted by the amount of energy before it actually passed out. So when it came back online, it just was like, oh, I'm good. I don't remember being scared, but it's the amount of stress that is thrown into our nervous system before we hit a state of overwhelm. That means when we are coming back down, we have to shake through all that emotions in order for our system to be still enough to find stillness.
Michelle Pualani: I'm just [00:49:00] imagining these experiments with pigeons happening. The other thing that I've heard of that's interesting with animals, with this fight or flight response, is that when a lion is out on the hunt after zebras, and the zebras can feel the energy of that hunt, they'll run. If the lion has already eaten, they may be in the same environment, or if that lion has caught one of the zebras, the other zebras relax.
Michelle Pualani: So there's almost this sense of, it's not the actual lion that's causing it, but it's that energetic state of the lion that needs to eat. When I think of this, when it comes to the nervous system, it's about, not necessarily about like, okay, what is the one thing? We were talking about the root cause.
Michelle Pualani: You're not necessarily trying to target and pinpoint that one thing or this external circumstantial experience that I'm going to use as the blame aspect of why I'm feeling this way. But [00:50:00] more so tuning into what's happening internally, realizing the feelings and the emotions that are coming up with that and being able to navigate that independent of the why.
Michelle Pualani: So really finding that space for yourself to. Take the walk to move your body when you say somatics is get kinesthetic with it move it out in your body Whether that's dancing or jumping or shaking or brushing. I've done some of that in my used to teach yoga So like just brushing off the energy and kind of getting some of that out, I think is really critically important.
Katherine Smailis: I think just wanting to be an advocate for relationships are One of the, other than entrepreneurship, one of the most powerful containers for personal development, for personal ascension, for learning. And once you have this universal language that you can both speak, you can start to utilize your relationship as this very powerful, [00:51:00] double like magnet, those bubbles that I showed you or I discussed are to roidal energy fields that when you're optimizing your bubble.
Katherine Smailis: and you feel very powerful in your relationship and your connection, you start to magnetize lots of things to you more effortlessly. But it's when we experience more disconnection and miscommunication is when it really pulls on all areas of your life. So, just wanting to, tell you that if you're in a relationship or if that's what you're looking for, these are the most powerful and the most challenging. experiences that you can have and you might just be missing some of this, this language that will connect you at a more powerful level.
Michelle Pualani: One of the questions that I'm coming up with, as we start to kind of wrap this conversation today, is that There's a difference between like the cognitive, the conscious and then the subconscious, the energetic. So when you have Pinpointed and you say consciously, [00:52:00] okay. I know that I am in fight or flight right now I know that I'm having this nervous system response.
Michelle Pualani: I'm panicking. I'm feeling frustrated I'm overwhelmed, but you feel like you can't get it into the subconscious What are you supposed to do? Because you kind of have this sense of like, okay, rationally, I know these things rationally. I know that I'm not supposed to be scrolling on my phone rationally. I know that I'm not supposed to go down this YouTube rabbit hole, but I can't stop it necessarily.
Michelle Pualani: And I want to focus and I want to do the work. And there are these things that I'm procrastinating on. How do you actually take yourself from realizing what's happening into actualizing? that calm nervous system and taking the steps and doing the things that you want to do.
Katherine Smailis: first of all, you're aware like, Oh, I'm on my phone and I'm, I'm distracting myself again, put the phone down and go into a quiet space where you can ask yourself, if I were a little kid and I was feeling in my body, what I'm feeling now, what [00:53:00] would, what shape or position would my little self be in? Where, how would I move this? Uh, lots of times when people actually ask themselves that question, and they're like, if I was a little kid and I was feeling really overwhelmed and scared, I'd be in the fetal position. And if you can get that immediate, just subtle, direction of like where your body wants to be in space, and you put yourself there, an emotion will come up. You might cry, which is your nervous system releasing downregulating, that energy, like a pressure cooker. You're press pressing the energy or the steam, uh, valve and letting energy leave. And then after that release happens, you might say like, oh, I feel a little bit more open. And you start to listen. To the internal cues that your body's giving you to start to open.
Katherine Smailis: And once you open, another emotion might come up. So I really just teach people how to notice what state they're in, and then [00:54:00] ask their body and get really good at what is the immediate thing that your body's asking for, and following through with that. That's building trust. That's building connection to intuition and your instincts, building more alignment, embodiment, all those great words that you hear.
Katherine Smailis: That's where it comes from. Listening to the subtleties of what your body's trying to tell you in terms of wisdom and executing.
Michelle Pualani: So you're saying sitting with and feeling that emotion is a positive thing to do. Yeah. And I feel that way is that anytime I'm sure that you have had this as a listener as well as anytime that you've had that really good cry and you just feel like, oh, okay, now I can get on with my life. Like that feels great.
Michelle Pualani: I think this embracing that and knowing that it's okay is so important because again, as we lead up to that experience, while that pressure is cooking, while things start to build up, we start to feel this heightened sense of Questioning, self doubt, insecurity, and wondering what's wrong with us. Why can't we do this?
Michelle Pualani: Why am I getting [00:55:00] pulled into the phone? Why am I not able to sit down and do this? And we are asking almost the wrong questions. So it's a matter of, you know, what can I do at this moment to best support me putting down the phone, going into a quiet space and really tuning into what is that emotion that's coming up?
Michelle Pualani: Let myself feel that emotion and it's easier said than done. as someone who again has dealt with that and been working through sitting with my emotions. It's not easy, but I do think that it is worth exploring. So thank you so much, Catherine. This has been phenomenal. I think that we all struggle with this sense of our nervous system, getting the best of us in our businesses, in the work that we do.
Michelle Pualani: And how can we start to change that? How can we start to, like you say, regulate our nervous systems? better so that we can show up, do the work that we're meant to do, and also improve our relationships along the way. Because if you're letting your relationships be sacrificed by [00:56:00] that work, that business, whatever it is, is it worth it to fulfill that?
Michelle Pualani: You want to be able to balance both and really find that work life harmony. So some of the practices that you're talking about and how you work with clients can take on a really special format.
Michelle Pualani: And you mentioned and have talked with me before about this retreat that you're hosting in Costa Rica. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Katherine Smailis: Yes, I'm so excited. Um, I just went to Costa Rica and it's such a magical country because it has Uh, a neuroceptive field, an energy field of very rest and recovery. It's a very motherly, feminine place to be. So just being there, is very healing because your nervous system starts to downregulate just by being there.
Katherine Smailis: It's pretty interesting and amazing. But I've curated an experience where I don't want you to have to think about anything. When you come to the retreat, you come with your, partner. It's a curated couples intimacy workshop. So as soon as you land, you're picked [00:57:00] up by someone from the retreat center. They take you to the retreat.
Katherine Smailis: You have three meals, nutritious meals, um, that are, crafted for everyone, every day that's included. We're also doing a free 60 minute massage, a sweat lodge. There's going to be, daily excursions. You're also going to have an intimacy workshop and a movement workshop, and it's all curated to help you to turn down the nervous system so you can focus on reconnection.
Katherine Smailis: And in the reconnection, you're going to be learning lots of tools, lots of the stuff we talked about today, but more relevant to your individual. Um, relationship and how going home, you can transform your relationship so that it can become an asset and it can become a renewing source of energy and inspiration and creativity, for your relationship.
Katherine Smailis: So that's the goal of the retreat. It's a five night, um, six day. Uh, it's going to be so fun. We're really close to the beach. So lots of times to get into nature and to [00:58:00] really feel in your body what peace and reconnection feels like.
Michelle Pualani: What a magical way to spend time with the person that you care about most. I just think it's a beautiful way to. Gain that intimacy to really connect with your partner. Whether you feel disconnected or not, I think that sometimes when things are really great, that's almost the best time to enjoy that experience and really dive into expressing yourself, having them express to you.
Michelle Pualani: there's so much benefit there. And then allowing that to really charge up. your capacity for business, for life, for all the stressors that are coming at you from all these different angles. It's almost like you're, you're stoking the fortress or you're reinforcing the fortress of your self, your body, how you show up, who you're being.
Michelle Pualani: And that's essentially What you bring into your personal brand, your business and everything that you do. So we will make sure to link that up below so you can [00:59:00] find out details for that retreat. If you would like to join Catherine in Costa Rica, how could you not?
Michelle Pualani: Well, thank you so much, Katherine. I've really enjoyed this conversation today, and as a listener, I really hope you take the time to figure out this for yourself. You know, this nervous system language can sometimes be a little bit confusing. It can feel maybe a little bit far away, But it so often impacts the way that we're showing up in our businesses, in our lives, and in our relationships that it's worth taking a closer look.
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What is one thing you can do today to prioritize you in business and [01:00:00] life?
